Am I the only one who thinks a swapped 86 is no longer an 86?

[Yardjass]

I disagree with the human analogy. You're still you unless they put a different brain in. Psychological changes from surgery or the ability to do things like superman don't change the fact that you're still you. A human is a sentient being and there is very clearly one organ that makes us, us. A car isn't.

I don't think this is arguably a clean cut answer. A lot of the FD people say that putting an LSX in the thing ruins the car because it throws off the weight balance and takes away its character. I personally find them to be pretty cool and not compromising in performance if set up properly but I can see some logic in their views.

Then there's my 300ZX. The car has a decent suspension for the time period but it is also regarded as a fat pig. Dropping an LSX in it cuts over 100 lbs and eliminates the temperamental VG motor. Pull the spare tire and some other useless stuff out of the rear and you have hardly affected your weight distribution at all. I find it to be improved but the purists don't really like me.



The previously mentioned Honda K-series Miata is an improvement over stock in literally every way, and is arguably what the Miata and S2000 should have been from the factory. This is mainly because the Miata motor is such a mediocre piece of crap that was probably put there for no other reason than simple cost savings. The Honda Miatas are light, powerful, reliable, and high-revving but without the sort of V8 power/torque that makes the car too squirrely.



I guess all of those are changes, and every engine swap in general, is a change to a car's "heart and soul". Sometimes it is an improvement, sometimes it isn't. Let's not forget what many of us have discussed about the very, very long list of parameters, criteria, regulations, etc. that the OEM has to meet. When a car is perfect for these parameters to a company or bean counter, it isn't perfect for the user, especially not at the price point of an 86. Why can't putting a different engine in it improve the car and maintain its spirit? Every swap may not do this but some certainly could.

[Leonardo]

Originally Posted by Yardjass

A human is a sentient being and there is very clearly one organ that makes us, us.

via Imgflip Meme Generator

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

But without an 86mm bore and stroke, you can't call it an 86.
Put a V8 with an 86mm bore and stroke and call it an 86.

Good thing most of them over here are called frs or brz then, lol.

It will always be what it started out as on registration so.... no i dont subscribe to this.

[Overdrive]

So a 1ZZ-FE-equipped vanilla Corolla (03-08) is a Corolla. But when they made the Corolla XRS in 05-06 by dropping in the 2ZZ-GE from the Celica GTS, it didn't suddenly cease to be a Corolla. Who from here's gonna write to Toyoda and tell him he's wrong?

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

Good thing most of them over here are called frs or brz then, lol.

It will always be what it started out as on registration so.... no i dont subscribe to this.

So, you would answer yes if I asked you if a 5.0 Mustang with an LSX swap is still a 5.0.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Overdrive

So a 1ZZ-FE-equipped vanilla Corolla (03-08) is a Corolla. But when they made the Corolla XRS in 05-06 by dropping in the 2ZZ-GE from the Celica GTS, it didn't suddenly cease to be a Corolla. Who from here's gonna write to Toyoda and tell him he's wrong?

That's the motor is came with from the factory, soooooo
It didn't cease to be a Corolla, but it did become an XRS.

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

That's the motor is came with from the factory, soooooo
It didn't cease to be a Corolla, but it did become an XRS.

So if someone had done it before Toyota did it from the factory(probably did happen somewhere in the world, who knows), and Toyota did it afterward, since they're both still E120 chassis, does the unnoficial progenitor get a pass from the hair-splitting happening in this thread?

Heck, let's take it another step. If someone took a base model same-gen Corolla, and put a 2ZZ from an XRS in it anytime after 2004 (2005 MY), is that car no longer a Corolla? Is it suddenly now a Corolla XRS after not being born that way from the factory?

[Tokay444]

What it is is a bastard.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

So, you would answer yes if I asked you if a 5.0 Mustang with an LSX swap is still a 5.0.

The answer would be that it is still a mustang. Since 5.0 is not the model name.... lol

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

What it is is a bastard.

As you like, but I don't really see a difference between what is basically a factory engine swap and tune and an individual doing a similar thing, with neither car ceasing to be what it was to start. Lotus may have chosen to kinda-sorta make a name change when they made the same swap with the same engines in the Elise, but it's not a requirement.

No, an LS-stuffed 86 isn't the same as a stock one, but if Toyota chose to drop their own V8 in there and offer it for sale without making it a completely different model, it shouldn't really be considered an entirely different situation just because Toyota did it themselves.

For the record, I'm really just playing a bit of devil's advocate here with the topic, not trying to get under anyone's skin. I have had this discussion for what probably adds up to several hours with a friend of mine who is rather selective about which situations he deems to be wrong when it comes to engine swaps, rather than it just being black and white that ANY engine swap is wrong...though that's usually how he starts the debate.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Overdrive

So a 1ZZ-FE-equipped vanilla Corolla (03-08) is a Corolla. But when they made the Corolla XRS in 05-06 by dropping in the 2ZZ-GE from the Celica GTS, it didn't suddenly cease to be a Corolla. Who from here's gonna write to Toyoda and tell him he's wrong?

It then became a Corolla XRS. If I put an engine from a Mustang in it becomes a Corolla shell with a Ford engine. No at Corolla of any mark.

If I take a Viper and replace the engine with Briggs and Stratton 5hp is it still a Viper?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by Overdrive

As you like, but I don't really see a difference between what is basically a factory engine swap and tune and an individual doing a similar thing, with neither car ceasing to be what it was to start. Lotus may have chosen to kinda-sorta make a name change when they made the same swap with the same engines in the Elise, but it's not a requirement.

No, an LS-stuffed 86 isn't the same as a stock one, but if Toyota chose to drop their own V8 in there and offer it for sale without making it a completely different model, it shouldn't really be considered an entirely different situation just because Toyota did it themselves.

For the record, I'm really just playing a bit of devil's advocate here with the topic, not trying to get under anyone's skin. I have had this discussion for what probably adds up to several hours with a friend of mine who is rather selective about which situations he deems to be wrong when it comes to engine swaps, rather than it just being black and white that ANY engine swap is wrong...though that's usually how he starts the debate.

Ahhh see but they would at least give it a special designation as a sub group of that model and that is a whole different ball game.as I have said if somebody wastes to claim they have the fastest 2JZ 86 that is one thing. If they are swapped and just claim to be the fastest 86 that is another thing altogether. We are no longer comparing the same car and it should not be called the same thing.

[Overdrive]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Ahhh see but they would at least give it a special designation as a sub group of that model and that is a whole different ball game.as I have said if somebody wastes to claim they have the fastest 2JZ 86 that is one thing. If they are swapped and just claim to be the fastest 86 that is another thing altogether. We are no longer comparing the same car and it should not be called the same thing.

I really don't disagree beyond your first sentence. However, whether they designate it differently within the model range or not (technically they don't have to other than to prevent confusion for people who don't actively read clearly presented information for a vehicle, and of course to make it more appealing than one without a V8) it's still an 86, right? Whether they name it 86 or 86 GLHS, it's still an 86, apparently just because Toyota says so, and that alone makes it ok. To me, Toyota deciding to Frankenstein an engine in there is at its basic level not entirely different than Joe Somebody doing the same thing other than people being willing to accept it more willingly.

[Yardjass]

Originally Posted by Overdrive

For the record, I'm really just playing a bit of devil's advocate here with the topic, not trying to get under anyone's skin. I have had this discussion for what probably adds up to several hours with a friend of mine who is rather selective about which situations he deems to be wrong when it comes to engine swaps, rather than it just being black and white that ANY engine swap is wrong...though that's usually how he starts the debate.

I'm not referring to anyone here but I find a lot of people to be very small minded and bigoted when it comes to this topic, even in cases where the replacement engine doesn't hurt the weight balance, COG, etc. First it's, "well you should have kept the stock engine". If not that, it's "well at least keep it [insert manufacturer here]". GM makes a better aluminum v8 than anyone in the world. Porsche is the same way with the flat 6. Honda is that way with an inline 4. God forbid you switch manufacturer's though. Better to swap an inferior engine that stays in house. If it isn't that it's "well at least keep it Japanese" or whatever nationality. It is so pointless, especially when a 1 liter ecoboost and a Veyron engine still have significantly more in common than not. I swear if we had alien tech, we'd have idiots talking about keeping it human but at least then there might be a real difference.