12-13-2023, 07:06 AM | #743 | ||||||||
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People would be exposed to FAR greater solar radiation and also cosmic rays. All the time logged by astronauts in low earth orbit where they are protected by the Van Allen belts does not translate into survivability outside the V.A. belts. Even lunar missions on the scale of days are far far more risky as solar activity can injure or kill astronauts outside the belts. Obviously a mission to Mars would leave them exposed for much longer. Building a ship with sufficient shielding makes the mission impractical, unless we want to spend a significant portion of GDP on it for years/decades. With the tech we have now or may have in the next say 10-20 years, I don't see it happening. Quote:
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People seem to think that going to Mars is just a step beyond going to the moon. It is one or two orders of magnitude more difficult. I don't think it's realistic with chemical rockets. Unless you decide that a 25% chance of survival is acceptable risk... Last edited by ZDan; 12-13-2023 at 07:25 AM. |
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12-13-2023, 08:47 AM | #744 | ||
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Enjoy your 1 month holiday break. Hope to see you come back more calm without calling names & have an adult discussion or debate. & this is still a warning to ALL in this thread. I’m not asking everyone to hold hands & sing kumbaya. All I’m asking for is not to yippee ki yay each other. |
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12-13-2023, 09:36 AM | #745 | |
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Edit: Apologies to Ichi, I didn't see that you dealt with it before posting.
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12-13-2023, 10:22 AM | #746 |
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Oh man, and just as I started a different thread to try and redirect this discussion away from the space exploration thread....typical of me, always just "that to much" late!!!
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12-13-2023, 11:03 AM | #747 | |
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But I love that you said southern hemisphere and north pole.
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12-13-2023, 03:26 PM | #748 | ||||||
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According to this RAND article from 1972, a half bar of pressure is more than achievable: https://www.rand.org/content/dam/ran...2008/P4874.pdf Quote:
Do you know the risks, or do you just know the radiation dose is higher and just assume a high risk? Do you think people will accept this risk and go, or are you saying that no government in the world will allow people to take this risk? Quote:
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Now you are saying you don't think it is possible to go to mars with chemical rockets, but we have put landers and rovers on mars over a dozen times going back to the 70's, so this statement confused me, along with your 25% survivability risk. The success rate in the last twenty years has been high, so I don't really understand your risk assessment from a technologic assessment, even if health risks were thrown in there in an arbitrary number.
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12-13-2023, 03:53 PM | #749 |
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12-13-2023, 04:10 PM | #750 |
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I don't know if this has been discussed...
Lockheed Martin Selected To Develop Nuclear-Powered Spacecraft
https://news.lockheedmartin.com/2023...red-Spacecraft
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12-13-2023, 04:37 PM | #751 | |||||||
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Also, hundreds of miles of underground vacuum tunnels would be a massive undertaking. Anyway, judging from just how far different enterprises have run with this "original" idea (from 1906), and how much test tunnel has been made operational, I'm thinking that the impracticality of the idea has been made apparent to those trying to develop it. Quote:
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12-13-2023, 05:04 PM | #752 |
extra what?
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I think few people really appreciate how many things had to happen "just so" for life to evolve the way it has here.
Mars is a total pipe dream. Learned folks who promote this fantasy are disingenuous at best, more like fraudsters.
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12-13-2023, 10:13 PM | #753 | |||
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There would be plenty of air molecules because, as I said before, the air resistance goes up with the square of the velocity. The propulsion comes from magnets. The pod moves on wheels until it hits enough velocity that the ram air creates enough pressure to drive the pod away from the walls, as air that is channeled from the nose is compressed and is pressurized through the feet of the pod to the smooth surface of the tube. Say we have a train going 400mph, and we take it up to 1600mph; speed increased by a factor of four, but air resistance increased by a factor of sixteen, which means if you drop the air pressure to 0.5 bar, you still have the air resistance going up by a factor of eight. You definitely won't be short of air to generate lift pressure in a low pressure environment because the speed will be so high. Quote:
As the RAND article mentions, this would be a massive task, but the economics would pay out over a ground/elevated train, and the benefits over commercial air travel would be clear. Why hasn't it been done? Same reason we don't have any high speed trains: money. Local, state and federal governments are lobbied against public transportation, so we have a terrible public transportation system in this country. Part of that is the bureaucracy of trying to run trains through cities where every municipal along the path wants to either tax the project or wants to save an endangered turtle. You presume it to be a feasibility problem, but that is really only loose conjecture. Meanwhile in China: Image. Quote:
(Source), and this study suggests that the REID for the planned mars mission of 940 days to be 2-8% depending on the gender and race (Source). This means this trip would be a one and done trip for astronauts for their career in space, but it would be a risk most would take. The risk assessment for REIC and REID can't predict the future of cancer detection and treatments, and neither measure seems to be predicting whether a 35 year old who is exposed will die at 45 of cancer or at 90. Lockheed Martin developed an AstroRad vest that has been tested in space and is suppose to help block vital organs from radiation (Source). I don't know how effective it is compared to lead vests, but I think it is meant to be more comfortable than lugging a lead vest; even in a weightless environment, a led vest would be cumbersome. (Side fact: We don't use them for patients anymore in the hospital). Lockheed Martin is also contracted to develop a nuclear propulsion rocket, which could cut the time to mars from seven months to forty-five days. We will see. Unless people die in space on the mission to the moon, I think we will have people on the moon in less than five years, and we will have people on Mars in less than ten years.
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12-13-2023, 11:10 PM | #754 | |
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There are lots of theories on terraforming mars, including creating a magnetic field with studies showing mars may one day enable its own magnetic field, but really, this is all fun talk and science fiction until we first go and then return with materials to build. We can go camping on mars and do experiments. I don't think you would doubt that. We could bring small/micro nuclear reactors, vehicles, equipment for infrastructure, etc, so we can have an outpost and small colony. Over time, it would grow into something bigger, but Total Recall style. Pending some crazy technology like controlling gravity, I don't think we will be able to terraform mars into something earth-like that can sustain an atmosphere and significant amount of life, but I leave the possibility open.
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12-13-2023, 11:17 PM | #755 | |
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12-14-2023, 05:44 PM | #756 |
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This is a nice explanation for why NASA also chose a longer route for Artemis 1.
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