Motor Trend: 2016 Miata vs 2015 BRZ - Page 51 - Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community

HUNTERANGEL121 · 09-26-2015, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abraxis

Care to share your before and after flowbenches to show us your handiwork when it comes to performing 'basic' mods like headporting?

The internet breh

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Entroper · 09-27-2015, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poodles

This isn't the old days where ports didn't match in shape at all to the gaskets or manifolds and there was massive casting flash in the ports... Modern engine designs don't show much gains when it comes to porting, usually it's from installing larger valves and cutting down the valve guides (which isn't great for longevity).

Cams aren't too bad to install, but have fun now that you've lost that torque advantage...

It's just conjecture at this point, but a few tuners have said that both the intake and exhaust ports look small on the Sky 2.0. They've still got a few things to try before going to the machine shop, they're talking about doing flow tests on the head and larger throttle bodies.

s0sl0w · 10-02-2015, 12:37 AM

So I test drove the new Miata yesterday to see if I had any interest in getting one over the BRZ I currently have. In brief: Wow, what a pleasant little car, I want one in my driveway.

My reference for this will be the BRZ which I believe is valid since both are more less filling the same market space at the same price, although the BRZ will probably get cross shopped against the AWD/FWD platform "fun" cars more so than the miata will, because fixed roof and back seats.

It's tiny, truly small in every way, there is no escaping how small the car is from first walk up to sitting in it and driving it. It makes the BRZ feel a bit big. The motor has useable torque, in fact the whole car is simple more accessible and useable relative to the BRZ. It's faster, feels stronger and is more enjoyable to simply drive in a normal or even moderately enthusiastic fashion. And that shifter... omg that shifter, just... PERFECT. The 86 has been praised for having a great shifter and but in comparison to whats in the miata the 86 shifter feels like moving a stick through rocky mud. It's most obvious when going 4-->5. The miata's shifter is just perfect. Pedal placement feels slightly better in the BRZ but that's likely my familiarity, basically a wash between the two.

As just about every review has stated, yes there's a lot of body roll and yes, it does take away from some of the absolute handling and confidence in working the chassis, but it in no way makes the car less enjoyable. Mazda actually put real (albeit it tiny, 205 SW) tires with a 280 TW rating on the car. I suspect a BRZ with the same tires would be every bit as quick around a race track and probably would chop a few tenths out of the 0-60 difference as well. While both cars have the same fun missive the Miata provide the sensation of movement and "at the limit" with a setup that allows for alot of body roll and chassis movement. The BRZ engineers did it by putting on a ****ty tire that has no actual grip on a stiff, dialed in suspension. The miata also rides considerable better. Going over railroad tracks and road imperfections that produce alot of feedback and even movement in my BRZ were noted and soaked up beautifully in the Miata. Steering feel is roughly the same between the two.

On the interior front, I didn't dig deeply into the infotainment of the Miata, but just a quick dabble put it down as acceptable. The interior is otherwise what you'd expect in a ~27K sports car, which is to say cheap. Lots of hard plastics. It does look more sophisticated than the 86 but it feels less nice to the touch. Due to the seats I'll give the nod to the 86 on this one though, the 86 seats are considerable better in an interior that's otherwise a tossup. The Miata seats don't have particularly strong side bolstering and no shoulder bolstering.

Which brings me to my conclusion on the car. It's fantastic but oddly dichotomous when compared to the BRZ. On the one had it has a more tractable, usable motor for the DD and enthusiastic drives, has a perfect little shifter, rides nicer and is in general a better car than the BRZ...

When you go from the normal or warm driving to hard driving chasing down the last little bit the BRZ is simply better at it. The suspension is more in tune and sharper, where the Miata feels great when not caning it (and the BRZ feels like dog **** here in comparison) when you rev it out the Miata just feels flat in the last bits of the RPM band, there is no reward for spinning it, whereas the BRZ finally comes into it's own in the last 2K. The Miata feels like a special car, fun car, for the 80% of the time you'll be slogging thru traffic, or taking a fun sprint through some curves. The BRZ feels special when you're trying to relive your race car fantasies, keeping the RPM up as high as you can and putting the car on the edge.

So in short the smaller, less DD'able car is the better DD while the more useful, DD justifiable car is the worse car to DD.

:derp:

Both cars are fan-****ingtastic though, and if you are choosing between the two, lucky you. Neither is the wrong choice. If I had a new Miata I wouldn't trade it to get a BRZ. I have a BRZ and I won't be trading it to get a new Miata. I do however want to buy one for my wife so that I can steal it at every opportunity. To simply drive on a public road in a semi normal fashion, the Miata is the better, more enjoyable car.

C/N: The new miata is fantastic, everyone should has one.

Rampage · 10-02-2015, 01:54 AM

The MX-5 and the BRZ in that photo both look 3/4 size compared to the cars around them. It just reminds me of how small the cars really are.

strat61caster · 10-02-2015, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rampage

The MX-5 and the BRZ in that photo both look 3/4 size compared to the cars around them. It just reminds me of how small the cars really are.

And the Protege 5 to the right is no porker by modern standards it'd be one of the smallest 4-door hatch on the market today.

chaoskaze · 10-02-2015, 07:23 AM

miata clearly has better suspension for everyday situation, twins oem suspension sucks ball on regular roads big time......However it's really nice when you are on a really twisty road like GMR by LA...feels like the suspension finally have enough load on them to make them feel right due to the Gs being put on them.

All the miata reviews makes me want to find a friend with new ND to let me pot around.

strat61caster · 10-02-2015, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaoskaze

miata clearly has better suspension for everyday situation, twins oem suspension sucks ball on regular roads big time......However it's really nice when you are on a really twisty road like GMR by LA...feels like the suspension finally have enough load on them to make them feel right due to the Gs being put on them.

All the miata reviews makes me want to find a friend with new ND to let me pot around.

Next year when the fervor dies down I'm definitely going to swing by a dealership and take a test drive. Easy con when you drive up in a 3 year old sports car to look at a newer sports car...

fatoni · 10-02-2015, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaoskaze

miata clearly has better suspension for everyday situation, twins oem suspension sucks ball on regular roads big time......However it's really nice when you are on a really twisty road like GMR by LA...feels like the suspension finally have enough load on them to make them feel right due to the Gs being put on them.

All the miata reviews makes me want to find a friend with new ND to let me pot around.

what?

DarkSunrise · 10-02-2015, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s0sl0w

So in short the smaller, less DD'able car is the better DD while the more useful, DD justifiable car is the worse car to DD.

:derp:

That's a great summary right there. I also agree with you that the Twins are in their element when you're trying to wring that last tenth or two out of them.

I haven't driven the ND Miata yet, but all the previous ones felt best when you weren't trying to push them to the very limit, at least in stock form.

Nice compare/contrast review of the two.

chaoskaze · 10-02-2015, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatoni

what?

What?

RandomDeception · 10-03-2015, 03:09 AM

For a few moments, I wondered if this year will be the first year that the MX-5 outsells the FT86 platform with their newest generation and our car due for a mid-cycle refresh, but then I look at the actual sales statistics. Really, not a snowball's chance in hell.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/05...s-figures.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/05...s-figures.html

People may continue to say how popular the Miata is, but this is almost only due to their 25-year-long history as their new cars just aren't moving off the lots as fast as they had been in the 1990's.

DarkSunrise · 10-03-2015, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandomDeception

For a few moments, I wondered if this year will be the first year that the MX-5 outsells the FT86 platform with their newest generation and our car due for a mid-cycle refresh, but then I look at the actual sales statistics. Really, not a snowball's chance in hell.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/05...s-figures.html
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/05...s-figures.html

People may continue to say how popular the Miata is, but this is almost only due to their 25-year-long history as their new cars just aren't moving off the lots as fast as they had been in the 1990's.

This is disappointing. The worse the new Miata's sales are, the less likely other companies will enter the lightweight RWD sports car market. There are reports Mazda is mulling over a possible RX-7 replacement, but poor sales of the new Miata will definitely discourage Mazda's bean-counters.

I'm hoping the Miata's sales numbers are due to limited supply.

Chad11491 · 10-03-2015, 09:27 AM

I would think the miata sales would not impact a "hardcore" sports car (not knocking the miata at all). The casual buyer sees oh look, cute convertible, or my god, 155hp? My camaro blah blah blah. The enthusiasts see a good handling toy to take to the track. A rx-7, or mx-7, whatever, with a hardtop coupe shape that taller people can actually comfortably fit in and an actual trunk space you can live with (in comparison to the miata) and maybe ~300hp 3000lb or a hair less (one can dream lol) with good handling and 0-60 numbers would yield a much higher casual buyer market, and enthusiasts would love it too.

Contrary to the legions of jalopnik, miata is not always the answer, as good as they are.

TRZ · 10-03-2015, 11:42 AM

Not sure if this was already covered, but Car and Driver published their annual lightning lap times which included the 2016 Miata. It ran a 3:20.8 which was interesting since the BRZ ran a 3:18.6 in 2013.

It was run at the Virginia International Raceway, which to be honest I'm not familiar enough with it to say that it favors power or handling in a car or a mix of both. They also publish a full list of times over the years, which makes some interesting reading since it includes many of the cars compared to the BRZ/FR-S here. Below is a selection of the results (in some cases, where there were multiple results for the same model I picked the fastest one):

3:27.3 Fiat 500 Abarth 2013
3:24.1 Honda Civic Si 2012
3:20.8 Mazda MX-5 Miata Club 2016
3:20.4 Ford Fiesta ST 2014
3:19.3 Volkswagon GTI 2010
3:18.6 Subaru BRZ 2013
3:17.6 Ford Focus ST 2014
3:16.7 Mazda RX-8 R3
3:16.0 Mazdaspeed 3 2007 (2010 model was 0.2s slower)
3:15.6 Ford Mustang Ecoboost 2015
3:15.5 Subaru WRX 2015
3:15.4 Mini Cooper Hardtop JCW 2015 (2009 model was 1.7s slower!)
3:15.0 Honda S2000 CR 2008
3:14.6 Volkswagon GTI 2015
3:13.8 Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 R-Spec 2011 (2013 was 0.1s slower)

I know the discussion here can range from drag racing to driving experience to practicality etc, but I think the lap times give an interesting benchmark of the capability of each car based on power and handling. I think its a pretty fair reflection of the models covered here.

10-02-2015, 01:54 AM	#704
Rampage Senior Member/Old Fanboi Join Date: Nov 2011 Drives: 2000 2ZZ-GE MR2 Spyder HT Location: Back home in Ohio now Posts: 2,446 Thanks: 1,931 Thanked 2,014 Times in 915 Posts Mentioned: 16 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	The MX-5 and the BRZ in that photo both look 3/4 size compared to the cars around them. It just reminds me of how small the cars really are. __________________ So many modders have more cents than sense!

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10-02-2015, 12:37 AM	#703
s0sl0w Proud of Boxer Join Date: May 2013 Drives: 2013 BRZ Location: Maryland Posts: 501 Thanks: 176 Thanked 273 Times in 136 Posts Mentioned: 2 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	So I test drove the new Miata yesterday to see if I had any interest in getting one over the BRZ I currently have. In brief: Wow, what a pleasant little car, I want one in my driveway. My reference for this will be the BRZ which I believe is valid since both are more less filling the same market space at the same price, although the BRZ will probably get cross shopped against the AWD/FWD platform "fun" cars more so than the miata will, because fixed roof and back seats. It's tiny, truly small in every way, there is no escaping how small the car is from first walk up to sitting in it and driving it. It makes the BRZ feel a bit big. The motor has useable torque, in fact the whole car is simple more accessible and useable relative to the BRZ. It's faster, feels stronger and is more enjoyable to simply drive in a normal or even moderately enthusiastic fashion. And that shifter... omg that shifter, just... PERFECT. The 86 has been praised for having a great shifter and but in comparison to whats in the miata the 86 shifter feels like moving a stick through rocky mud. It's most obvious when going 4-->5. The miata's shifter is just perfect. Pedal placement feels slightly better in the BRZ but that's likely my familiarity, basically a wash between the two. As just about every review has stated, yes there's a lot of body roll and yes, it does take away from some of the absolute handling and confidence in working the chassis, but it in no way makes the car less enjoyable. Mazda actually put real (albeit it tiny, 205 SW) tires with a 280 TW rating on the car. I suspect a BRZ with the same tires would be every bit as quick around a race track and probably would chop a few tenths out of the 0-60 difference as well. While both cars have the same fun missive the Miata provide the sensation of movement and "at the limit" with a setup that allows for alot of body roll and chassis movement. The BRZ engineers did it by putting on a **ty tire that has no actual grip on a stiff, dialed in suspension. The miata also rides considerable better. Going over railroad tracks and road imperfections that produce alot of feedback and even movement in my BRZ were noted and soaked up beautifully in the Miata. Steering feel is roughly the same between the two. On the interior front, I didn't dig deeply into the infotainment of the Miata, but just a quick dabble put it down as acceptable. The interior is otherwise what you'd expect in a ~27K sports car, which is to say cheap. Lots of hard plastics. It does look more sophisticated than the 86 but it feels less nice to the touch. Due to the seats I'll give the nod to the 86 on this one though, the 86 seats are considerable better in an interior that's otherwise a tossup. The Miata seats don't have particularly strong side bolstering and no shoulder bolstering. Which brings me to my conclusion on the car. It's fantastic but oddly dichotomous when compared to the BRZ. On the one had it has a more tractable, usable motor for the DD and enthusiastic drives, has a perfect little shifter, rides nicer and is in general a better car than the BRZ... When you go from the normal or warm driving to hard driving chasing down the last little bit the BRZ is simply better at it. The suspension is more in tune and sharper, where the Miata feels great when not caning it (and the BRZ feels like dog here in comparison) when you rev it out the Miata just feels flat in the last bits of the RPM band, there is no reward for spinning it, whereas the BRZ finally comes into it's own in the last 2K. The Miata feels like a special car, fun car, for the 80% of the time you'll be slogging thru traffic, or taking a fun sprint through some curves. The BRZ feels special when you're trying to relive your race car fantasies, keeping the RPM up as high as you can and putting the car on the edge. So in short the smaller, less DD'able car is the better DD while the more useful, DD justifiable car is the worse car to DD. :derp: Both cars are fan-**ingtastic though, and if you are choosing between the two, lucky you. Neither is the wrong choice. If I had a new Miata I wouldn't trade it to get a BRZ. I have a BRZ and I won't be trading it to get a new Miata. I do however want to buy one for my wife so that I can steal it at every opportunity. To simply drive on a public road in a semi normal fashion, the Miata is the better, more enjoyable car. C/N: The new miata is fantastic, everyone should has one.

10-02-2015, 07:23 AM	#706
chaoskaze The Fail Boat Join Date: Aug 2011 Drives: CWP S.B. Location: LasVegas Posts: 3,028 Thanks: 4,720 Thanked 1,294 Times in 874 Posts Mentioned: 19 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	miata clearly has better suspension for everyday situation, twins oem suspension sucks ball on regular roads big time......However it's really nice when you are on a really twisty road like GMR by LA...feels like the suspension finally have enough load on them to make them feel right due to the Gs being put on them. All the miata reviews makes me want to find a friend with new ND to let me pot around.

10-03-2015, 03:09 AM	#711
RandomDeception Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Drives: Stock FR-S Location: The Land of Always Winter Posts: 121 Thanks: 73 Thanked 63 Times in 39 Posts Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	For a few moments, I wondered if this year will be the first year that the MX-5 outsells the FT86 platform with their newest generation and our car due for a mid-cycle refresh, but then I look at the actual sales statistics. Really, not a snowball's chance in hell. http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/05...s-figures.html http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/05...s-figures.html People may continue to say how popular the Miata is, but this is almost only due to their 25-year-long history as their new cars just aren't moving off the lots as fast as they had been in the 1990's.

10-03-2015, 09:27 AM	#713
Chad11491 Senior Member Join Date: May 2013 Drives: 85.5 Porsche 944, '15 mustang GT PP Location: Duluth, Georgia Posts: 295 Thanks: 116 Thanked 155 Times in 85 Posts Mentioned: 1 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	I would think the miata sales would not impact a "hardcore" sports car (not knocking the miata at all). The casual buyer sees oh look, cute convertible, or my god, 155hp? My camaro blah blah blah. The enthusiasts see a good handling toy to take to the track. A rx-7, or mx-7, whatever, with a hardtop coupe shape that taller people can actually comfortably fit in and an actual trunk space you can live with (in comparison to the miata) and maybe ~300hp 3000lb or a hair less (one can dream lol) with good handling and 0-60 numbers would yield a much higher casual buyer market, and enthusiasts would love it too. Contrary to the legions of jalopnik, miata is not always the answer, as good as they are.

10-03-2015, 11:42 AM	#714
TRZ Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Drives: 2013 BRZ GBS Location: MA Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post Mentioned: 0 Post(s) Tagged: 0 Thread(s)	Not sure if this was already covered, but Car and Driver published their annual lightning lap times which included the 2016 Miata. It ran a 3:20.8 which was interesting since the BRZ ran a 3:18.6 in 2013. It was run at the Virginia International Raceway, which to be honest I'm not familiar enough with it to say that it favors power or handling in a car or a mix of both. They also publish a full list of times over the years, which makes some interesting reading since it includes many of the cars compared to the BRZ/FR-S here. Below is a selection of the results (in some cases, where there were multiple results for the same model I picked the fastest one): 3:27.3 Fiat 500 Abarth 2013 3:24.1 Honda Civic Si 2012 3:20.8 Mazda MX-5 Miata Club 2016 3:20.4 Ford Fiesta ST 2014 3:19.3 Volkswagon GTI 2010 3:18.6 Subaru BRZ 2013 3:17.6 Ford Focus ST 2014 3:16.7 Mazda RX-8 R3 3:16.0 Mazdaspeed 3 2007 (2010 model was 0.2s slower) 3:15.6 Ford Mustang Ecoboost 2015 3:15.5 Subaru WRX 2015 3:15.4 Mini Cooper Hardtop JCW 2015 (2009 model was 1.7s slower!) 3:15.0 Honda S2000 CR 2008 3:14.6 Volkswagon GTI 2015 3:13.8 Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 R-Spec 2011 (2013 was 0.1s slower) I know the discussion here can range from drag racing to driving experience to practicality etc, but I think the lap times give an interesting benchmark of the capability of each car based on power and handling. I think its a pretty fair reflection of the models covered here.

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