Electric Supercharger - Market Speculation

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by jdv14476

Salesman afraid of losing his job, do feeding effin troll.

Asks what I mean by "incentive."

[raven1231]

My dad can beat up your dad

[Target70]

I will admit to buying the ESC as a replacement for traditional FI. However I was not expecting the same performance characteristics, and I didn't want to go FI to begin with, I wanted a larger factory engine. But being that that wasn't an option and all the other bolt-ons in the world do next to nothing for bottom end, the ESC was the best compromise. It does have it's drawbacks, but price, simplicity, safety(for the motor), plug and play all add up to making it not so much a replacement, as just a different option.

Originally Posted by campy

I don't want a weak FI system that only activates at WOT. And the claim "+50whp with aftermarket headers" isn't a very good selling point. Rev Works tuned a 100% stock FRS to over 200whp, and people with headers alone already see upwards of 200whp...

Valid points, It's not for everybody, or every situation. We know that the header increases peak numbers (where the ESC is weakest), but a major benefit of most headers+tune is a reduction in the torque/hp dip, which is where the ESC is producing it's largest gains and completely erases the torque dip on it's own, so does the header add to the ESC for greater mid range gains or does one become redundant and steal the others thunder? In the comparisons that keep going back and forth, it's true that traditional may, using peak numbers, have better power per $$, but the ESC is admittedly weak at top end/peak power, so comparing peak to peak isn't a fair measurement. It would be better to compare the highest overall gain over the stock curve for both, (peak for traditional, and mid/low for ESC) or for a very through contrast, take and average all of the increases from stock across the whole curve, the more data points the more accurate the outcome. Even with that It's still difficult to compare because both need tunes for safety/performance. Very few people if any anymore have custom dyno tunes + ESC, where practically every traditional FI has a custom tune. Not only does that skew performance numbers in favor of traditional, but it was also a big reason for me to go with a plug and play tuning solution like the OFT. Due to a lack of reputable tuners in my area, I would have to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to find one. This brings up the point about Rev Works, even thought it is peak power, did they provide a base line to show improvement, and If they did and went from the average of I think 160 to 200+, meaning an extra 40 hp with a tune alone, how much dyno and tuning time/$$$ was spent to achieve this? $1000/$2000? I'm not knocking Rev Works, just pointing out that every mod has it's costs and benefits. If they have the base tune down and can quickly tweak it to fit your car then it sounds like it could be a good option for some, so long as they are a reasonable distance from their shop.

wow that turned into novel.. anyway I suspect it hasn't been mass marketed/produced yet is because it is relatively new technology, lacking in any long term performance or reliability data, they are starting out small scale on low volume cars like in the articles previously listed, as they prove themselves in the coming years they will likely bleed over into other areas of the market. Look at hybrid vehicles, it used to be a tiny little compact with no trunk space was the only hybrid available, and now they have them in family sedans, and suv's. Also with the newer smarter ECU's, with factory integration, they will be able to set it up similar to what shiv is doing, with infinitely variable boost, but instead of basing it only on throttle position, they can include other inputs like engine load, or the speed you vary the throttle. For example they could cause it to boost at 35% throttle if you rolled onto it quickly like if you were merging in to traffic, but it didn't necessitate 75% throttle. Add to it, that the boost would step up smoothly the instant it saw you went from 5% throttle to 35% in less than a second, it could feel virtually indistinguishable from N/A performance. I say give it 3 or 4 years for the auto manufactures to flesh them out and we will start seeing them on all types of cars. They will just about have to go to smaller engines with power adders if they want to meet the upcoming EPA emissions and mpg regulations.

[Wolfdogelite]

Originally Posted by Target70

I will admit to buying the ESC as a replacement for traditional FI. However I was not expecting the same performance characteristics, and I didn't want to go FI to begin with, I wanted a larger factory engine. But being that that wasn't an option and all the other bolt-ons in the world do next to nothing for bottom end, the ESC was the best compromise. It does have it's drawbacks, but price, simplicity, safety(for the motor), plug and play all add up to making it not so much a replacement, as just a different option.



Valid points, It's not for everybody, or every situation. We know that the header increases peak numbers (where the ESC is weakest), but a major benefit of most headers+tune is a reduction in the torque/hp dip, which is where the ESC is producing it's largest gains and completely erases the torque dip on it's own, so does the header add to the ESC for greater mid range gains or does one become redundant and steal the others thunder? In the comparisons that keep going back and forth, it's true that traditional may, using peak numbers, have better power per $$, but the ESC is admittedly weak at top end/peak power, so comparing peak to peak isn't a fair measurement. It would be better to compare the highest overall gain over the stock curve for both, (peak for traditional, and mid/low for ESC) or for a very through contrast, take and average all of the increases from stock across the whole curve, the more data points the more accurate the outcome. Even with that It's still difficult to compare because both need tunes for safety/performance. Very few people if any anymore have custom dyno tunes + ESC, where practically every traditional FI has a custom tune. Not only does that skew performance numbers in favor of traditional, but it was also a big reason for me to go with a plug and play tuning solution like the OFT. Due to a lack of reputable tuners in my area, I would have to travel hundreds or thousands of miles to find one. This brings up the point about Rev Works, even thought it is peak power, did they provide a base line to show improvement, and If they did and went from the average of I think 160 to 200+, meaning an extra 40 hp with a tune alone, how much dyno and tuning time/$$$ was spent to achieve this? $1000/$2000? I'm not knocking Rev Works, just pointing out that every mod has it's costs and benefits. If they have the base tune down and can quickly tweak it to fit your car then it sounds like it could be a good option for some, so long as they are a reasonable distance from their shop.

wow that turned into novel.. anyway I suspect it hasn't been mass marketed/produced yet is because it is relatively new technology, lacking in any long term performance or reliability data, they are starting out small scale on low volume cars like in the articles previously listed, as they prove themselves in the coming years they will likely bleed over into other areas of the market. Look at hybrid vehicles, it used to be a tiny little compact with no trunk space was the only hybrid available, and now they have them in family sedans, and suv's. Also with the newer smarter ECU's, with factory integration, they will be able to set it up similar to what shiv is doing, with infinitely variable boost, but instead of basing it only on throttle position, they can include other inputs like engine load, or the speed you vary the throttle. For example they could cause it to boost at 35% throttle if you rolled onto it quickly like if you were merging in to traffic, but it didn't necessitate 75% throttle. Add to it, that the boost would step up smoothly the instant it saw you went from 5% throttle to 35% in less than a second, it could feel virtually indistinguishable from N/A performance. I say give it 3 or 4 years for the auto manufactures to flesh them out and we will start seeing them on all types of cars. They will just about have to go to smaller engines with power adders if they want to meet the upcoming EPA emissions and mpg regulations.

Was this chapter 1? Does chapter 2 come out next week?

[WNDSRFR]

I've had the Phantom for over a year now and have never tracked my car. It's my daily driver. I have to ask the other daily drivers who have full time FI: How often do you actually use your extra power?
For me the ESC is the perfect solution to the car's limitations. Mainly the lack of low end torque. It truly makes the car feel like it has a V6. I can easily pass cars on the interstate in sixth gear. It feels just like an automatic transmission downshifting. But you are still in the same gear.

[industrial]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

This thread really isn't about comparing the two kits, parts of the discussion just went that way. To be fair, a person could continuously upgrade the JR kit until it reached a favorable HP output to the comparison. To also be fair, in discussing the "true" costs of the JR kit, it's considerably higher than $4000.

JR Supercharger base kit: $4000
EcuTek Tune (cable, license, tune): $700-$1000 (required)
Flex Fuel Kit + Flex Fuel Tune: $500-$700
That's actually about $5500 to get to theoretical Rotrex setup ATL_BRZ describes above (not $4000, you can't run the FI without a tune, and you can't run e85 in the way stated above without another tune and a flex fuel kit). However you can save some money if you buy the JRSC + Tune + Flex Fuel kit all at the same time and don't do this as an upgrade. That could drop the $5500 cost by $500 give or take.

Installation: Variable, but I wouldn't self install anything as complex as this kit without visiting a mechanic, tuner and dyno. So I'd put the installation number at: $500 - $1000 based on 5-7 hours of labor at a good shop. The ESC install is dead simple, the complexity is low, and the power is made in a way that won't grenade your engine if something goes wrong.

So if you do not self install the JR kit with e85 will run $6000 - $7000 vs. the Phantom kit + OFT for $2200 - $2300. Indeed, the numbers are easy to skew.

Of course the power isn't the same, but neither are the goals. However for the majority of drivers who rarely see a track (but possibly do AutoX and or drag) the ESC makes a lot of sense. A final note to this is that development of the ESC kit is bringing it closer to the above goals each day for A LOT less money.

You are skewing those numbers pretty far out of proportion. You absolutely do not need to have a professional mechanic install a KW kit and I know the JR kit is even easier. You can easily obtain said KW kit for $3500 and a remote tune/license/rented cable for around $500. That's $4000. For reasons I don't really understand, the JR kit is the more expensive of the rotrex kits.

I also don't know why you compare a flex fuel rotrex kit to just a plain e85 e-charger. You can run 2 tunes with a rotrex kit too and skip the flex fuel kit and save yourself $700 for the same hassle you'd face running the e-charger with two different fuel tunes.

Please compare apples to apples.

That said, I think the ESC kit is an excellent addition to the offerings out there. I'm on the waiting list myself. I'd like to tinker around with it on my NA forester. $2000 is the perfect spot for this kit. At $3000 you have entry level turbos and superchargers which this kit cannot compete with. You need around $4000+ to get any kind of track worthy kit which the ESC really can't compete with.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by industrial

You are skewing those numbers pretty far out of proportion. You absolutely do not need to have a professional mechanic install a KW kit and I know the JR kit is even easier. You can easily obtain said KW kit for $3500 and a remote tune/license/rented cable for around $500. That's $4000. For reasons I don't really understand, the JR kit is the more expensive of the rotrex kits.

I also don't know why you compare a flex fuel rotrex kit to just a plain e85 e-charger. You can run 2 tunes with a rotrex kit too and skip the flex fuel kit and save yourself $700 for the same hassle you'd face running the e-charger with two different fuel tunes.

Please compare apples to apples.

That said, I think the ESC kit is an excellent addition to the offerings out there. I'm on the waiting list myself. I'd like to tinker around with it on my NA forester. $2000 is the perfect spot for this kit. At $3000 you have entry level turbos and superchargers which this kit cannot compete with. You need around $4000+ to get any kind of track worthy kit which the ESC really can't compete with.

Context brother, context.

I'm not "skewing the numbers". I was replying to ATL_BRZs setup and what the average person (like myself) would have to get these kits installed safely. You make it sound like I nefariously or purposely tried to inflate the costs. Please.

1. So just because you may be able to find a KW kit on sale for $3500, I didn't see one when I typed the reply. $4000 is the price I found from many common vendors. Kraftwerks direct, FA20 Club, RevWorks all list the kit above $4000. It's not an uncommon or inflated price and may even be a little low. I wouldn't post a used price or some black Friday sale or group buy price when making cost comparisons.

The JR kit, which I was quoting is generally recommended above the KW kit and is sold by many vendors including Counter Space Garage. Their website price is $4000 without a tune, but your average person won't buy the kit without a tune because the car won't run that way. So the price on the same website is $5000 with a tune.

2. If you want to talk apples to apples, the functionality of renting a ECUTek cable and having a Tuner program the ECU does not compare directly with buying an OFT and switching maps whenever a person desires. IMO your average person won't rent a cable because they struggle with understanding how the whole ECUTek process works unless they speak with a Tuner themselves. You're seem to be skewing by looking for the lowest possible cost and not the likely costs.

3. I posted the Flex fuel cost because ATL_BRZ runs a flex fuel kit and I was replying to him. Also, IMO the average person won't run e85 on an ECUTek setup without one. Whereas the only option for e85 on an OFT tuned ESC requires manual map switching below e50. I even mentioned that in my reply.

4. CSG_Mike noted that it took him 8 hours to self install his Rotrex kit. He's not a professional ASE certified mechanic, but he's probably a better mechanic than the majority of people on this board. I don't think anyone who is a non-experienced mechanic would look at his experience and think the install is easy. I don't think it's safe or smart for your average Joe to self install something that complex. The average Joe probably doesn't even have the tools to do the job. You may disagree and that's fine, but recommending professional install isn't some attempt to "skew the numbers". With something as complex as a Rotrex installation, it's a smart idea that your average person should follow to not break their shiny new supercharger or worse, their motor.

Even though your post is positive about the Phantom kit, people need to understand the costs and the complexity of what they're getting into in VERY realistic terms. With all due respect, giving people the expectation that they can buy and install a new "track worthy" Rotrex setup for $4000 is doing them a great disservice.

[industrial]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Context brother, context.

I'm not "skewing the numbers". I was replying to ATL_BRZs setup and what the average person (like myself) would have to get these kits installed safely. You make it sound like I nefariously or purposely tried to inflate the costs. Please.

1. So just because you may be able to find a KW kit on sale for $3500, I didn't see one when I typed the reply. $4000 is the price I found from many common vendors. Kraftwerks direct, FA20 Club, RevWorks all list the kit above $4000. It's not an uncommon or inflated price and may even be a little low. I wouldn't post a used price or some black Friday sale or group buy price when making cost comparisons.

The JR kit, which I was quoting is generally recommended above the KW kit and is sold by many vendors including Counter Space Garage. Their website price is $4000 without a tune, but your average person won't buy the kit without a tune because the car won't run that way. So the price on the same website is $5000 with a tune.

2. If you want to talk apples to apples, the functionality of renting a ECUTek cable and having a Tuner program the ECU does not compare directly with buying an OFT and switching maps whenever a person desires. IMO your average person won't rent a cable because they struggle with understanding how the whole ECUTek process works unless they speak with a Tuner themselves. You're seem to be skewing by looking for the lowest possible cost and not the likely costs.

3. I posted the Flex fuel cost because ATL_BRZ runs a flex fuel kit and I was replying to him. Also, IMO the average person won't run e85 on an ECUTek setup without one. Whereas the only option for e85 on an OFT tuned ESC requires manual map switching below e50. I even mentioned that in my reply.

4. CSG_Mike noted that it took him 8 hours to self install his Rotrex kit. He's not a professional ASE certified mechanic, but he's probably a better mechanic than the majority of people on this board. I don't think anyone who is a non-experienced mechanic would look at his experience and think the install is easy. I don't think it's safe or smart for your average Joe to self install something that complex. The average Joe probably doesn't even have the tools to do the job. You may disagree and that's fine, but recommending professional install isn't some attempt to "skew the numbers". With something as complex as a Rotrex installation, it's a smart idea that your average person should follow to not break their shiny new supercharger or worse, their motor.

Even though your post is positive about the Phantom kit, people need to understand the costs and the complexity of what they're getting into in VERY realistic terms. With all due respect, giving people the expectation that they can buy and install a new "track worthy" Rotrex setup for $4000 is doing them a great disservice.

I'm not going to write a story and rebut point to point. I do believe you wrote your post with the attempt to cast the phantom kit in a flattering light by basically giving a worst case scenario for the rotrex kits. You made some points but the fact still stands that quite a few people have self installed their jr and kw kits. A vast majority of people have gotten on the road for significantly less than the $6-7000 you mentioned. The kW kit is easy to install. It's just time consuming. There is a difference. If you can install a phantom, you can install a rotrex kit.

[Andrew025]

I could do it tomorrow but I'm much too busy.

[Sojhinn]

Wow... Can't believe I missed this whole thread. It's been a fascinating read.

As someone who has owned the phantom from the beginning I would love to chime in with a few things.

1) when I was first looking at FI the very first thing I was looking at was cost. I am married, I have two kids, and I'm a teacher. I don't make much money and I saw the phantom was at a great price point. But bang for buck this kit was amazing.

2) When I bought the kit, it was no where near as proven as it was today. Nor did it have shivs backing either. It was my conversations with Rob that proved that this kit was headed in the right direction. Rob is the dreamer and builder. ( he's my Wozniak)

3) It has to say something that when I took my car to shiv to be tuned... That he was impressed. I'm so glad that I took that 8 Hr drive to get my car properly tuned with the phantom. I feel like many of the advances we have seen in the last year wouldn't have been possible without shiv and Rob working together.

4) I'm a physics teacher and something about changing electricity into mechanical forced induction is so bad ass.

5) The phantom works because great people believe in it. I know of few communities who down the kool aid as much as we do.

Lastly, I am good friends with Nlowell who is one of the only people to have had an esc and also currently a mechanical supercharger. There are days he has stated he wishes he still had the phantom. (Usually the days he spends money to safely run his supercharger) And that has to be telling since I've driven his car and it drives like a bat out of hell. But I still prefer my car after seeing how much money he has dropped into his and the issues he has to deal with.


Oh yeah and as for those "issues" people have had with the phantom? Most of them were self inflicted by the user. Very few issues have cropped up with the kit itself.

[raven1231]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

Wow... Can't believe I missed this whole thread. It's been a fascinating read.

As someone who has owned the phantom from the beginning I would love to chime in with a few things.

1) when I was first looking at FI the very first thing I was looking at was cost. I am married, I have two kids, and I'm a teacher. I don't make much money and I saw the phantom was at a great price point. But bang for buck this kit was amazing.u

2) When I bought the kit, it was no where near as proven as it was today. Nor did it have shivs backing either. It was my conversations with Rob that proved that this kit was headed in the right direction. Rob is the dreamer and builder. ( he's my Wozniak)

3) It has to say something that when I took my car to shiv to be tuned... That he was impressed. I'm so glad that I took that 8 Hr drive to get my car properly tuned with the phantom. I feel like many of the advances we have seen in the last year wouldn't have been possible without shiv and Rob working together.

4) I'm a physics teacher and something about changing electricity into mechanical forced induction is so bad ass.

5) The phantom works because great people believe in it. I know of few communities who down the kool aid as much as we do.

Lastly, I am good friends with Nlowell who is one of the only people to have had an esc and also currently a mechanical supercharger. There are days he has stated he wishes he still had the phantom. (Usually the days he spends money to safely run his supercharger) And that has to be telling since I've driven his car and it drives like a bat out of hell. But I still prefer my car after seeing how much money he has dropped into his and the issues he has to deal with.


Oh yeah and as for those "issues" people have had with the phantom? Most of them were self inflicted by the user. Very few issues have cropped up with the kit itself.

FRAUD I TELL YOU!

[Target70]

Originally Posted by raven1231

FRAUD I TELL YOU!

reported

j/k :P

[LucidMomentum]

Originally Posted by Sojhinn

5) The phantom works because great people believe in it. I know of few communities who down the kool aid as much as we do.

So we're Orks? Awesome.

[PowderfaceTr.]

For Lithium Cells 0.90–2.63 MJ/L

31.7006463 MJ/L For Gasoline



4.8 MJ/kg vs.41 MJ/Kg.

Unless they invent the lithium-air battery some time soon, Gasoline is king. Not to say it wont help increase efficiency by reducing lag and other losses. As a main source of power electricity blows. lol