Advanced driving.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

Even with the weight transfer to the front, the rear tires have enough contact patch and grip that the stock brake pads can't completely use, this is where engine braking helps.

Bollox. Even the handbrake will lock the rear wheels and it only use a drum brake inside the disc. The disc brakes around that are more powerful.

The brakes are so good that the brakes will slow the engine rpm faster than the engine rpm will drop on it's own. Try it in 1st if you don't believe me. Rev the car up to 7k and lift the throttle. See how long it takes the revs to fall to idle. Then repeat with the car rolling. 7k rpm, then stamp on the anchors. You will stop faster than it takes the revs to drop in neutral.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by paulca

Bollox. Even the handbrake will lock the rear wheels and it only use a drum brake inside the disc. The disc brakes around that are more powerful.

The brakes are so good that the brakes will slow the engine rpm faster than the engine rpm will drop on it's own. Try it in 1st if you don't believe me. Rev the car up to 7k and lift the throttle. See how long it takes the revs to fall to idle. Then repeat with the car rolling. 7k rpm, then stamp on the anchors. You will stop faster than it takes the revs to drop in neutral.

Of course the brakes will stop the car faster than the engine, the engine helps the brakes. The drum brakes are harder than the disk brakes because the rear calipers have about 1/4 the force of the front, which is why when you stomp on the brakes you only lock up the front while the rear just wants to keep going.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Andrew025

"Normal" people drive like that all the time (aggressive, mashing the accelerator and brakes). It's not exclusive to the boy racers.

I employ most of the techniques you're advising against and you probably wouldn't be able to pick me out of normal traffic since it's easily possible to drive normal and not like an asshat with these techniques.

Again, well done. But, I stress, there is little to no advantage in doing these techniques and they should NOT be given to newbies as the correct way to learn to drive a manual. They are advanced techniques that are usually shunned by experienced driving instructors as pointless and distracting.

Also it doesn't matter if you have practiced these techniques until they appear to happen automatically, they are still using up large parts of your brain that could be better served elsewhere.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

Of course the brakes will stop the car faster than the engine, the engine helps the brakes. The drum brakes are harder than the disk brakes because the rear calipers have about 1/4 the force of the front, which is why when you stomp on the brakes you only lock up the front while the rear just wants to keep going.

If the drum brakes where good enough we would not have disc-over-drum rear brakes. The drum brake is used because hydraulic brakes can leak. If your handbrake was hydraulic and it leaked your car could be off down the road on it's own. They don't make non-hydraulic caliper brakes, so we have to have a drum brake.

I am telling you that in emergency braking it is the brakes that are slowing the engine, not the other way around.

EDIT: I think you miss-understood my post. I mean, with the car stationary in neutral hold the revs at 7k. Then release the throttle and time how long the revs take to drop to idle. This is how long it takes the engine to slow itself without any input from the car. Now try it in gear while rolling. The revs will come down faster because the brakes are slowing the engine faster than it would slow under it's own momentum. Thus engine braking has no effect in emergency or heavy braking.

[Andrew025]

Originally Posted by paulca

Also it doesn't matter if you have practiced these techniques until they appear to happen automatically, they are still using up large parts of your brain that could be better served elsewhere.

Are there peer reviewed studies done that show these techniques cause drivers to pay less attention to the road or you're just assuming?

Something something assuming and ass or something.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by paulca

Again, well done. But, I stress, there is little to no advantage in doing these techniques and they should NOT be given to newbies as the correct way to learn to drive a manual. They are advanced techniques that are usually shunned by experienced driving instructors as pointless and distracting.

Also it doesn't matter if you have practiced these techniques until they appear to happen automatically, they are still using up large parts of your brain that could be better served elsewhere.

Tell that to ads, music, celphones, that work you forgot you had to do, etc. Those are distractions

Rev matching helps you keep your attention in driving. It teaches you to have all your sences focused on driving and the cars around you as you need to anticipate what the car in front, behind or next to you is going to do.

[n2oinferno]

By OP's reasoning nobody should drive a vehicle with a manual transmission on the road, since the need to shift takes focus away from driving.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

Tell that to ads, music, celphones, that work you forgot you had to do, etc. Those are distractions

Rev matching helps you keep your attention in driving. It teaches you to have all your sences focused on driving and the cars around you as you need to anticipate what the car in front, behind or next to you is going to do.

What if you trained yourself to move that attention from rev matching, from the car control entirely to the road around you. Think of the amount of situation awareness you would have then.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by paulca

If the drum brakes where good enough we would not have disc-over-drum rear brakes. The drum brake is used because hydraulic brakes can leak. If your handbrake was hydraulic and it leaked your car could be off down the road on it's own. They don't make non-hydraulic caliper brakes, so we have to have a drum brake.

I am telling you that in emergency braking it is the brakes that are slowing the engine, not the other way around.

EDIT: I think you miss-understood my post. I mean, with the car stationary in neutral hold the revs at 7k. Then release the throttle and time how long the revs take to drop to idle. This is how long it takes the engine to slow itself without any input from the car. Now try it in gear while rolling. The revs will come down faster because the brakes are slowing the engine faster than it would slow under it's own momentum. Thus engine braking has no effect in emergency or heavy braking.

It helps whether you say it doesn't, it's simple physics.

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Andrew025

Are there peer reviewed studies done that show these techniques cause drivers to pay less attention to the road or you're just assuming?

Something something assuming and ass or something.

I don't know, but most likely. Try here:
http://www.iam.org.uk/media-and-rese...ts?layout=blog

[paulca]

Originally Posted by Luis_GT

It helps whether you say it doesn't, it's simple physics.

Okay, pretend I don't understand kinematics and tell me how if the brakes have to forcibly slow the engine faster than it can slow itself in order to get the car to stop that this helps braking.

[Luis_GT]

Originally Posted by paulca

What if you trained yourself to move that attention from rev matching, from the car control entirely to the road around you. Think of the amount of situation awareness you would have then.

I have complete situational awareness, if you think a 1/2 second action made every I don't know what's the average length of time between stop lights, let's say 5 minutes, is enough to affect your awareness, you shouldn't be driving.


There are countless distractions, from the time it takes to adjust the volume on the radio, to changing radio stations, and those activities don't involve your focus on driving, when rev matching keeps your focus on driving and maintaining control of your car.

[Andrew025]

Originally Posted by paulca

I don't know, but most likely. Try here:
http://www.iam.org.uk/media-and-rese...ts?layout=blog

Ah, I see.
I have some proving otherwise. Try here http://goo.gl/fbsS

[strat61caster]

Read the OP, blocked Luis GT and skimmed the rest of the thread, rather enjoyably predictable. I agree, the tl;dr I double clutch on my way to work because racecar is silly and tantamount to owning an F150 with an 18" lift and talking about how you need to pick up another box of magnums cause of all the sex you had last weekend. With hawt chicks.

Originally Posted by dem00n

I'd also like to add that the Miata is still to this day one of the worst first day track cars. Though that might be my personal experience with them.

I understand your statement but heartily disagree, if I were to buy a sports car all over again I would have saved myself twenty-two thousand dollars and bought an NA miata, I rode along in one with a skilled driver and it was mind blowing the amount of speed we carried through the corners.

If it's your first time driving something at speed on a track that has any sort of reward for powerful cars and you're in a novice group with Mustang GT's and BMW's and Porsche's and Corvettes without the right attitude you'll be miserable.