Tesla Model S

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by TheRipler

This seems unlikely, as there was no Delorean in 1962.

I believe he is joking MT Import car of the year was only introduced in 1970.

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by RaceR

No problem. I find the subject interesting.
Most EU countries are not like Norway in terms of taxes. (Very high on normal, extremly high on high HP high CO2 cars, and super low on electric vehicles.
But to be honest. Norway is really bad country for electric cars compared to most other EU countries. The population is small (5 million) and the country is quite big and with lots of hills and not the best climate.
Some history and views of the good driving roads here:


Not a suitable trip for an electric vehicle. Even not the Model S. Would need several superchargers..

What makes electric cars and low emission cars in California so desirable compared to the rest of the US?

Interests me too; I think you can tell lol. Thx for the vid! I only watched a few minutes for now, will watch the rest after work. It reminds me a little bit about another adventure taking a Corvette from continental US up to and all over Alaska. Don't remember exactly but I think it was CarandDriver and they started in southern California.

The thing about California and electric/low-emission vehicles is partly like SkullWorks said the hippie/earthchild/flower-power thing and also partly the climate/environment situation that makes this state - in particular southern california, and more particularly the Los Angeles area - very prone to air pollution. I remember very well myself how back in the '70s when people still drove carbureted cars running on leaded fuel how bad the smog was. The unbreathable air combined with embargo-induced fuel shortages got the "green" ball rolling.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by einzlr

Interests me too; I think you can tell lol. Thx for the vid! I only watched a few minutes for now, will watch the rest after work. It reminds me a little bit about another adventure taking a Corvette from continental US up to and all over Alaska. Don't remember exactly but I think it was CarandDriver and they started in southern California.

The thing about California and electric/low-emission vehicles is partly like SkullWorks said the hippie/earthchild/flower-power thing and also partly the climate/environment situation that makes this state - in particular southern california, and more particularly the Los Angeles area - very prone to air pollution. I remember very well myself how back in the '70s when people still drove carbureted cars running on leaded fuel how bad the smog was. The unbreathable air combined with embargo-induced fuel shortages got the "green" ball rolling.

So this car would be awesome in California with other words!
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3orXopgLNs"]Electric Volkswagen Bus - YouTube[/ame]


A couple of years ago diesel was the big thing here. Lower CO2 emissions. Good! Everyone should have diesel, its got lower emissions compared to petrol.
But now the issue is the local climate. In two of the big cities there have been talk about banning diesel cars/ adding fees for diesel cars due to NOx output. The air is quite bad at times during winter.
Needles to say, people who went for diesel have not been that happy since the government at some point recommended diesel, and than some years later are talking about adding restrictions. They have also added a little bit of NOx taxes, so some diesel engines have lost a bit extra value due to those changes.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by RaceR

I have read (speculations?) that Tesla have higher profit on their cars than you say. Up towards 20%. (Not sure if its correct).
In EU, the prices and profit will probably be higher. But if they mess up and need to send mechanincs around to fix cars that extra profit could fade away.
I think Tesla could have a huge future! The potential is high. And just the "Tesla" the brand starts getting real popular in terms of electric vehicles.

That's probably their gross profit, because there is no way they are netting any profit at their current operating costs. I was actually being generous on the net assessment, I doubled what my current company is. Our machines gross 20-35%, but our operations costs are fantastically wasteful.

I would look to Nissan before Tesla for the EV revolution, they've made statements to the effect that hybrids aren't the solution so they will go EV for their green products. I'm not against the EV future, I just think Tesla is pissing away money on hype and unrealistic projections.

[Books]

Hmm, Nobody here seems to like electric cars

As an EE I appreciate what Tesla is trying to do, it's a very competitive and uncertain market. I've read about their technology and it's really cool albeit very under appreciated. ie We rave about our low center of gravity but it is harder to understand the difficulties in designing such a powerful electric motor to work in a car without destroying the battery if you floored it. Don't want to say much about the politics side, it's quite a mess.

Realistically, if I could afford one I would get one only as a second car. The technology isn't there yet and the cold ain't good for batteries. Someone has to try though and I applaud them for doing so.

[RaceR]

Originally Posted by Books

Hmm, Nobody here seems to like electric cars

I do. (Ok, Im probably highly influenced by the current VAT and TAX benefits in my country)

I would love the see the Nissan Esflow into production. A long with with more practical cars.

I im also very into the BMW I-series. Some "BMW born electric tour" starts in tomorrow. Im exited about any news there.

Originally Posted by Dimman

I would look to Nissan before Tesla for the EV revolution, they've made statements to the effect that hybrids aren't the solution so they will go EV for their green products.

Nissan Leaf was a top 10 bestseller here in oktober. Highest ranking in any country. EV cars have latest months had 3,5%+ of the market share. And they are growing. But at the moment Nissan does not have anything to offer in terms of range or performance that can compete with the Models S.

Personally I don't know what the best solution is. In Norway we have enough clean energi production to support the country and export clean electricity. That way we can say that EV vehicles are good here. But you could argue that we should just export the energy, and thereby other countries in the EU would not have to produce that much energy from coal plants.
I have read several places that using electric power made by coal can emit up to 120-170g CO2 per km in an EV. That is more than the typical new car here pollutes. Combine those emissions with the emissions made by producing large electric battery packs that have to be replaced/renewed somewhere between 6-15 years than you could ask youself if EV cars are the solution. Currently its not the global solution. Thats for sure. But it works well within my country.
I do think its important to support the EV and hybrids. The only way for cars to evolve in terms of alternative drivetrains, battery techology etc is to support the current technology so that it may be improved upon. Gas/diesel/ oil petrol wont last for that long, so its important to find and work on alternatives as soon as possible. (In other words now)
Maybe one day we will have some sort of EV cars that weight much less than than a petrol car and have way more power and twice the range of a tank of petrol, and also less maintenance and super fast recharge times. Or maybe all the power can be packed safely inside a 4kg "cell" we can replace in 1 min at a "cell station".. :p who knows...

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by RaceR

What makes electric cars and low emission cars in California so desirable compared to the rest of the US?

Tree hugging is extremely fashionable here, but another thing that people haven't mentioned is that California (citizens) are pretty rich and have money to throw at these sorts of cars.

The argument people like to make is "well if I buy a Leaf/Prius, I save like 3000 a year compared to my SUV!", but they forget that a Corolla or Civic or something would save almost that much at a lower buying price. Of course, it's not nearly as fashionable though :P

When you buy a Lexus LS600h for 120000 dollars or whatever, it's definitely not to save a few hundred a year on fuel compared to a thirstier Mercedes S600, and the same goes for the Tesla Roadster.

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by RaceR

So this car would be awesome in California with other words!
Electric Volkswagen Bus - YouTube


A couple of years ago diesel was the big thing here. Lower CO2 emissions. Good! Everyone should have diesel, its got lower emissions compared to petrol.
But now the issue is the local climate. In two of the big cities there have been talk about banning diesel cars/ adding fees for diesel cars due to NOx output. The air is quite bad at times during winter.
Needles to say, people who went for diesel have not been that happy since the government at some point recommended diesel, and than some years later are talking about adding restrictions. They have also added a little bit of NOx taxes, so some diesel engines have lost a bit extra value due to those changes.

Haha the VW bus would be '70s meets '10s

Wait, what happened with diesel? I thought the urea additive for modern diesel cars cleaned up their exhaust. Guess I need to get myself better informed on that. I'm pretty sure if something like that happened here there'd be a huge revolt and the government would be forced to do something like exempt people who bought diesels during the time they were encouraged.

It's kind of interesting what's been happening here in the US with regard to diesel. Decades ago, the only passenger cars that ran on it were Mercedes, and you could smell them from a mile away On the other hand, diesel was available at nearly every filling station and cost 2/3 what petrol cost. Now there are more diesel cars than ever, but they're from VW not Mercedes, and diesel costs more per gallon than petrol but it's available at only maybe one filling station in ten :P

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by einzlr

Wait, what happened with diesel? I thought the urea additive for modern diesel cars cleaned up their exhaust. Guess I need to get myself better informed on that. I'm pretty sure if something like that happened here there'd be a huge revolt and the government would be forced to do something like exempt people who bought diesels during the time they were encouraged.

lol, cleaning up diesel exhaust is a hopeless exercise. Urea gets used up, do you want to be refilling up a separate tank for emissions all the time? NOx is excess oxygen combined with the nitrogen in air, the only way to get rid of it is to combine it with something that will accept oxygen, like fuel :O

Expect further spark ignition engine developments for a while, as there is a TON of room to improve them. Electrical infrastructure needed to provide power for quick charging large numbers of cars does not exist as of now (just think about how much power a charging station would need...the 10 story math/econ building at Berkeley consumes 400kW during the day, that's not enough power to quick charge 10 cars! As battery tech improves, the transient power demands will increase even more) Renewable chemical fuel works with the current existing infrastructure.

[einzlr]

Here's a website about the bmw born electric world tour if anyone's interested. They've already been to a few cities; New York is on for tomorrow.

http://www.bmw-i.com/en_ww/events/

[einzlr]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

lol, cleaning up diesel exhaust is a hopeless exercise. Urea gets used up, do you want to be refilling up a separate tank for emissions all the time? NOx is excess oxygen combined with the nitrogen in air, the only way to get rid of it is to combine it with something that will accept oxygen, like fuel :O

Expect further spark ignition engine developments for a while, as there is a TON of room to improve them. Electrical infrastructure needed to provide power for quick charging large numbers of cars does not exist as of now. Renewable chemical fuel works with the current existing infrastructure.

Haha you're right, for me personally having to refill urea would be too much bother. But plenty of people love their TDI VWs

I expect spark ignition developments to continue until the supply of crude dries up for real. I don't really foresee US government mandates killing off gasoline before that, but they might cripple it or they might result in increased and speedier development of alternatives.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by einzlr

Haha you're right, for me personally having to refill urea would be too much bother. But plenty of people love their TDI VWs

I expect spark ignition developments to continue until the supply of crude dries up for real. I don't really foresee US government mandates killing off gasoline before that, but they might cripple it or they might result in increased and speedier development of alternatives.

The supply of crude will not dry up, it'll just be more and more expensive to be burning as much as we are now as fuel (although I imagine a bunch of fractions of crude are not of much use for manufacturing and stuff). There are a number of ways to go, liquid fuels like ethanol and biodiesel being the easiest to adopt, methane/natural gas being easier to produce but also harder to distribute and store, hydrogen being the most problematic.

My vote is for corn juice (but apparently there is enough waste oil, wood chip, grass etc. to produce all of our fuel requirements!). With a few not so difficult modifications, light engines should be able to run up to 45% thermal efficiency and well over 30% average in 10 years time with the help of some waste heat recovery, and that's really good already, the theoretical maximum (within certain practical engineering limits like peak pressure and temperature) is a bit over 60%.

[Dimman]

@serialk11r

What is the current situation on cellulose-derived ethanol?

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Dimman

@serialk11r

What is the current situation on cellulose-derived ethanol?

Seeing how ethanol is still not that cheap, probably not good. Still waiting on the day I can enjoy the glorious power of a corn juice fed car. Doesn't hurt that old gassers with dying O2 sensors will stink less too.