AutoX crash in the BRZ

[blkwrxwag]

Do not sue!

Take responsibility for your own actions - no one forced you to race that course.

Unless you want to kill the sport for everyone else... then go right ahead.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Guillaume

The 10-2 position is non-sense. It slows you down and is less precise because you're off balance. Most of the time both hands are going up (or down) simultaneously and it takes a lot more muscles (and force) to achieve. It made some sense when power steering didn't exist but it is totally outdated.

A 9-3 position makes your arms work in opposition, resulting in a more stable position along with faster and easier movement. It enables a better *flow* in your steering input and gives a wider turning angle without letting go of the wheel too.

In this particular case, I believe that the slow and insufficient steering correction lead to the crash. A proper steering technique could have avoided landing that poor BRZ on its roof.

10-2 or 9-3 is a preference IMO (yes 9-3 is better). You can be plenty fast and smooth with inputs with either. I usually decide based on the wheel, the BRZ wheel feels better to me with 9-3, my integra 10-2, race car probably 9:30-2:30

Hand placement from 10-2 to 9-3 wouldn't have avoided it. Smoother inputs and faster reactions would have (based on memory, the video is private so I couldn't review it again). I include inputs and reaction to changes as steering technique.

In the end that's partly what you learn at autocross, too bad that venue left zero room for learning (well SAFE learning anyways).

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Porsche

There you are...

"Judgment for the plaintiff. Defendants to pay $30,000 plus court costs."

In The World According to Porsche, you got yourself into trouble with your throttle foot, not your hands. Yes, borrowed from a famous stock car racer of days gone by who said, "I got a little behind on my steering." Yes, you did.

But it was your THROTTLE foot that put you in that predicament in the first place.

Ask Dave, the moderator. He strikes me as being a knowledgeable fellow. Show him your video if he hasn't seen it. I think he'll agree with me.

As GTB/ZR1 knows I'm not one to talk to about keeping the ass end in line at autocross, I keep it dancing around. You just need to react and use that to your advantage, that's the second place where the OP messed up (the first was getting behind in the first place), he corrected a little, but not enough, and too slowly and then there simply wasn't room to correct that.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by blkwrxwag

Do not sue!

Take responsibility for your own actions - no one forced you to race that course.

Unless you want to kill the sport for everyone else... then go right ahead.

While I agree that a lawsuit isn't an answer, these clowns need to revise what they are doing. I would NEVER set up a slalom in an environment like that. It's irresponsible and idiotic to set that course up like they did.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

As GTB/ZR1 knows I'm not one to talk to about keeping the ass end in line at autocross, I keep it dancing around. You just need to react and use that to your advantage, that's the second place where the OP messed up (the first was getting behind in the first place), he corrected a little, but not enough, and too slowly and then there simply wasn't room to correct that.

Ask the OP to show just YOU the video again. Email, maybe.

He's going way too fast around the first right, AND the tail is coming around HARD from too much throttle held for too long. There's no way he's making the left cone even if he DID have miles of concrete out to his right.

Check it out, if possible, Dave.

[Porsche]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

While I agree that a lawsuit isn't an answer, these clowns need to revise what they are doing. I would NEVER set up a slalom in an environment like that. It's irresponsible and idiotic to set that course up like they did.

I don't like lawyers, although I've had enough problems with the health care system and incompetent doctors to understand why lawyers are necessary.

This poor fellow suffered heavily at the hands of these "clowns."

The OP, too, bears responsibility for his choices. However, that does not mean the club bears NO RESPONSIBILITY. I didn't read anything about how they're going to help out this poor fellow.

Why should the FULL BURDEN of the costs be born solely by the OP when others were ALSO AT FAULT.

I don't expect him to sue, but he should consider it, and he should use it as an option to negotiate some settlement with the club. Heck, if I were his lawyer, I might even call YOU as a witness, Dave.

I have much contempt for our litigious society, make no mistake. But this strikes me as unfair that the OP must shoulder the burden of all the costs he's incurred through no real fault of his own save for his inexperience which in turn led to poor judgment in running the course in the first place.

I hold him accountable, absolutely.

But I hold the club accountable as well. They're walking away penalty free; that strikes me, again, as grossly unfair. If they have insurance, it's time to call upon it and responsibly accept their own portion of the blame here.

Folks here need to understand that not all of life can be reduced to a Zero Sum Game, one winner, one loser. Oftentimes BOTH parties are in the wrong and BOTH parties have some duty to share the responsibility.

The errors of this club are so egregious that it is an injustice that they should be allowed to walk away unscathed, avoiding their own responsibility to care for the participants. They failed.

I say the club owes the OP something. He should not be abandoned to bear this alone.

Responsibility is a two-way street here. I'll bet a judge would agree, should the club fail to come to terms with the OP, the hapless victim of their startling incompetence and negligence.

[BioRage]

Video is Private D:

[markitect]

If you want to do something constructive about the problem, you should work to get the berm changed into a sand trap, or gator strip, or tire wall...

[n2oinferno]

How were they at fault though? Of course it doesn't look like the ideal autox setup at all, but OP was completely free to choose to walk away from the venue if he felt he was at risk. Yes, they made some stupid decisions and designed the course poorly, and they really need to revise what they've got, but I think the only chance to prove they were at fault is to have multiple accidents in the exact same spot by several other drivers in other vehicles. Otherwise it's not a matter of putting attendees at greater risk, but driver error.

[01s0uljah]

Make it public again!

[naikaidriver]

Originally Posted by Porsche

I say the club owes the OP something.

A club T-Shirt?

Scott

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

How were they at fault though? Of course it doesn't look like the ideal autox setup at all, but OP was completely free to choose to walk away from the venue if he felt he was at risk. Yes, they made some stupid decisions and designed the course poorly, and they really need to revise what they've got, but I think the only chance to prove they were at fault is to have multiple accidents in the exact same spot by several other drivers in other vehicles. Otherwise it's not a matter of putting attendees at greater risk, but driver error.

Gross Negligence on the part of the organizers trumps all waivers and releases, etc. The participant is paying the organizers in good faith that a professionally run event is being held, which includes safety concerns being addressed. Here you couldn't even get insurance for that event, K&K has very specific rules for that and I can say that would NOT be OK with them. I don't know if this group has insurance or if they use a group with different rules, etc. The participant has a reasonable expecation that the course is reasonable safe.

If the course is setup in a way that you can prove gross negligence (and you can IMO with this course) then a lawsuit is possible. It's still not *my* way of doing things though.

Having run events (albeit HPDEs) myself these type of liability concerns are always present. We have a lawyer on staff (volunteer staff) to make sure we don't do anything that can be shown to be gross negligence on the off chance something like this happens. If someone dies at my event I can't just say "Hey, look, he/she signed a waiver!". I have to prove that we took all reasonable and feasible precautions to ensure that the event, facility, rules, etc would be as safe as possible. If for example, I didn't tech a vehicle, or I let something slide, that equals gross negligence. Or I don't move a tire wall from an unsafe location to a safe one, or don't force people to follow a blend line, etc... all gross negligence.

[akuhei]

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

How were they at fault though? Of course it doesn't look like the ideal autox setup at all, but OP was completely free to choose to walk away from the venue if he felt he was at risk. Yes, they made some stupid decisions and designed the course poorly, and they really need to revise what they've got, but I think the only chance to prove they were at fault is to have multiple accidents in the exact same spot by several other drivers in other vehicles. Otherwise it's not a matter of putting attendees at greater risk, but driver error.

From the SCCA Rulebook:

"The course boundary shall not normally pass closer than 25 ft from
solid objects."

"The same sort of reasoning must be applied to cornering speeds. If, for
example, there are two identical 30 mph turns, one bordered by a 50 ft
drop off or a solid row of trees and the other by 50 ft of flat, obstacle-free
asphalt, the hazards involved are much different. The former is clearly
not permissible in an SCCA® Solo® event and the latter clearly is."

While the second one may or may not apply, it pretty much says that common sense should be used. Having a slalom next to a steep slope like that isnt the best idea. And the first quote, its not like its passing a little close to the corner of it, the slalom runs the whole length of the bank.

FYI, I have never done Autox and probably wont anytime soon. I plan on keeping my racing fun on a track. But if it only took me a couple minutes to find two places in the rulebook saying that this was a bad idea...it was a really bad idea to set up the course like that.

[Moshpit37]

Originally Posted by BRZerk

hah DITTO


edit: saw your avatar, are you a Duquesne grad or is that a coincidence?

I don't know what a Duquesne is, but I am a Detroit Tigers fan. That's the Olde English "D."