A pessimist's take on sales success / failure

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by tripjammer

The 2012 370Z with the sport package and 6 speed manual revmatch is $35,240...that is gonna be over $10,000 more than a loaded Scion FR-S. You have to get the sport package to get the Synro Rev Match...

I wasn't talking about price or anything else, I was replying to someone else. And again, the Nismo Z is still the only good one IMO :P It's more expensive still.. used and new than a sport package.

[iff2mastamatt]

I don't think Toyota is aiming to sell many ft86's, but rather they are using it to see which direction they should go in. If the 86 is very successful, no doubt Toyota will continue to develop the 86 and plan more "sporty" cars for its lineup (possibly even the FT-HS or a supra successor). If the 86 fails to sell, then Toyota will know it has no business in the low end sports car market.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

That would be nice, I'd like to see Nissan with a good car besides the Nismo Z.

The Nismo Z shares parts with the Sports package Z. You don't need a Nismo Z for the added sportiness in a 370Z Sport.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

The Nismo Z shares parts with the Sports package Z. You don't need a Nismo Z for the added sportiness in a 370Z Sport.

You don't get all the suspension stuff, nor the resale value of the Nismo. Good for those looking to buy used and modify the car, not good for those who might want to leave it completely stock..

[RRnold]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

FRS doesn't need those std options and follow the Scion bloated theme, it needs more holes in the frame to reduce weight and more hamsters under the hood to get out of it's own way. The FRS is suppose to be a drivers car right? Then all the tC crap needs to stay far away. Doing this should allow for a $21k car with the option to still add accessories, and whatever you want to categorize dealer installed options and accessories is up to them.

It doesn't need 17", LED, HID, 6 Speakers. That is for the Subaru variantS that are starting in the high end of 24k.

You can't confuse the world Toyota model with the US Scion model. The things you saw of those brochures are not for the Scion. Like Aki said it would be suicide to start the Scion at 24k.

True!

trip does have a point based on the current Scion marketing approach but they have the tC and the tc Release Series 7.0. So much for multiple models of the same model.

My take is that they might do the same thing with the FR-S! I doubt they'll have the low-spec but more of a middle spec equipped car with color matched exterior, hub caps or bland looking alloys, no 2 tone, 6 speaker stereo and the accessories will be the push start, HID's, door sill, body kit, 18's, alcantara accents etc. In that case, the cost will start low but if you fully equip it, boom 28K!

[Aki]

I'm hoping Scion would offer a relatively stripped base version as the standard, something in between the low-trim and the customize trim in the leaked brochures. 2-speaker CD/audio, 16-inch steelies, painted bumepers, A/C, rear seats. The rest you'd have to buy as accessories/options. That'd keep the price low.

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

You don't get all the suspension stuff, nor the resale value of the Nismo. Good for those looking to buy used and modify the car, not good for those who might want to leave it completely stock..

Right, worse thing about the TRD items, Nismo Z and cars like Mugen R Civic though, is that essentially you are buying a dressed up slightly tuned car for $8+k more.

It's not the same like:

Mazda 3 to MazdaSpeed3 -- 5k+/-
Impreza to WRX -- 8k+/-
WRX to WRX STI -- 8k+/-
Mini Cooper S to MCS JCW -- 10k+/-
328i to 335i -- 8k+/-

You could spend 8k on the 3, Impreza and 328i but it wont match the upper sport model and have less value. BUT what would be a good idea is take the WRX or MCS and dump 8k in them. You would be faster and more customized than the JCW and STI but it still wont be the same value or exclusivity.

The FRS is not going be like the Mazda 3, it will be like the Z and Civic. The BRZ will be like the Mazda 3 in this regard because of the STI edition but it's going to be more than $5k.

[Rabble]

Scion can't price the FRS at $20k because that's exactly where the tC price is. Unless they phase out the tC and replace it with the FRS.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

You don't get all the suspension stuff, nor the resale value of the Nismo. Good for those looking to buy used and modify the car, not good for those who might want to leave it completely stock..

I've read that the sport package suspension is much better because Nissan tuned the Nismo for less grip. It also shows in the instrument testing where a sport package Z registers .99g vs a Nismo Z at .95g.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...t/viewall.html

[NewCarInQ42011]

Sorry to hijack the thread with a post, but let me ask some questions about 370z /w sports package vs 370z Nismo

I've been lurking this forum for a long time and found some members like Dave RoR pretty knowledgable in this area. I find it very interesting that he, among some other enthusiasts (e.g., the AutoBlog first drive article of the Nismo Z, linked at the bottom), think that the only Z worth getting is the Nismo Z whereas many others on the370z.com say it is either: (1) a complete waste of money, or (2) only worth it if you can justify most of the additional price (~7k over base with sports) on body kits and wheels.

Could you let me know more about what makes the Nismo Z really different from a base Z with the sports package? I already know everything that is shown on paper or captured in pics. It would be great if you can let me know how significant is the difference driving the two when it comes to how it feels. The AutoBlog first drive review seemed to emphasize this to a great extent, and I am trying to understand how big the difference really is.

AutoBlog First Drive
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/17/f...-simply-rocks/

[PAImportTuner]

Originally Posted by Rabble

Scion can't price the FRS at $20k because that's exactly where the tC price is. Unless they phase out the tC and replace it with the FRS.

They serve 2 different purposes, entirely 2 different cars. That will appeal to both crowds but people will want.. NEED what the tC has to offer and cannot use the FRS as a daily/family/passenger/cargo friendly car with comfort or even drive it year round during inclement weather.

So they could be priced the same or $1k apart.

[Snoopyalien24]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

It's been "coming" for how many years now?

I'll buy it when I see it....

^this

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by NewCarInQ42011

Sorry to hijack the thread with a post, but let me ask some questions about 370z /w sports package vs 370z Nismo

I haven't driven a 2012 Sports Package, so I can't speak to that specifically.

My personal opinion of the normal Z's is simply that I never found them to be particular great cars to drive, in fact I've been generally disappointed by them (full disclosure, I haven't driven any recent 370zs, only 09s and 10s, so they may have changed them, I wrote them off awhile ago). The Nismo Z's have always felt more connected to the driver, especially the 350 Nismo (the 370 is softer). The 350 Nismo is also pretty annoying on long trips/DD because of the seam-welded body (which the 370 Nismo lacks, making it a lot easier to build a car similar to a 370z nismo than it was a 350z nismo) which tends to resonate annoying on certain road conditions. However, the 350 Nismo will plant a smile on your face, compared to the frown I got from regular 350s :P The 370Z Nismo is faster though, so if the numbers are your thing than the 370Z is the way to go. The 350Z is much harder to replicate and is more special IMO, and it's what I think of whenever I think Nismo Z. Oh yeah, the 350Z didn't have the brake failures like the Nismo (and therefore Sports Package) will have on track.. hopefully Nissan has fixed that now. Also Nissan themselves didn't actually tune the Nismo, Autech did both of them. (That's to Sub-ft86 point about Nissan not tuning the nismo the same way as the sport package). Resale is also higher on limited production cars, if you ever decide to sell them.

Take the cars that I own as an example, one is 3 years older, and it's worth 2x minimum what the other similar but non-limited/special trim level is worth. Now that's not always the case (I don't believe S2000CR's are worth that much more than regular S2000s for example) but it could be a consideration somewhere on the list.

I also prefer not to modify a car costing close to 40k, so I'll go with the best factory package I can get at that price range. With something in the FR-S range I have no problem running 5k shocks with custom rate springs, etc but I don't want to do that work for a 40K car.

So for me, just like the FR-S/BRZ it all comes down to driver enjoyment, and I simply enjoy driving the Nismo more (outside of the fantastically UGLY ass body kit on the 350Z version) because I feel more connected to the car, get better feedback from the car, etc.

I'll click on the link you posted, I don't think I've ever read an actual review on them.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by PAImportTuner

Right, worse thing about the TRD items, Nismo Z and cars like Mugen R Civic though, is that essentially you are buying a dressed up slightly tuned car for $8+k more.

It's not the same like:

Mazda 3 to MazdaSpeed3 -- 5k+/-
Impreza to WRX -- 8k+/-
WRX to WRX STI -- 8k+/-
Mini Cooper S to MCS JCW -- 10k+/-
328i to 335i -- 8k+/-

The FRS is not going be like the Mazda 3, it will be like the Z and Civic. The BRZ will be like the Mazda 3 in this regard because of the STI edition but it's going to be more than $5k.

Some cars, like the 350 Nismo have more than bolt ons. I agree on the general bolton cars (and even agree that the 370Z Nismo is financially a stupid move unless it's resale proves otherwise, and it's still a bit too new to see any long term result on that). I always prefer to start off with the car/trim level that I like driving the most, regardless of cost. If I enjoy a MCS JCW enough to not have to touch it and just enjoy the car stock, I'll spend the extra money. If on the other hand I feel like I'm just driving a faster version of the same exact car for crazy amounts of extra money (more than it'd cost to get the car there or better) then I won't bother.

The Mugen Civic we got in the US rarely lasts long enough to be sold before stolen, but a friend who bought one (after the prices dropped like a rock) sold it recently for 25K or so, so he basically drove it for a few years and lost a couple of grand.. not bad for a new car.

TRD and other accessories are, IMO, generally a complete waste of money. I'll never argue against that :P