Performance automatics

[Want.FR-S]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

So it's like this, when the motor is at 0 rpm, and you feed the coil voltage, there is the inductance of the coil (which is quickly "overcome") and the resistance. So the maximum torque of the motor is related to whatever the maximum amperage the coils can handle. As it gets moving along the rotor is rotating in the same direction as the current (in some sense) and creates a back emf so the max current drops.

OK, IC, so the down-slope curve you mentioned is that wave for of the AC current, not the torque curve. Fair enough.

Originally Posted by serialk11r

A superconductor removes the motor's power limitation, but telling a battery to supply that energy is, precisely as you say, going to drain the battery too fast. Not only that, batteries have a maximum current supply issue that cannot be overcome without adding more batteries. Batteries have crap energy density (which theoretically can increase a few times, but we won't be seeing that for a while), and afaik the issue of degradation still has not been tackled. A gasoline motor can have very high specific output and very reasonable efficiency, but being tied to a finite number of gears definitely hurts its prospects. In order to create an excess of torque for a significant speed range like the tesla has, you need quite a bit of displacement/etc., and keeping that kind of engine fuel efficient and reasonable for daily use is much more difficult. Given that the Tesla's motor weighs a ridiculously low 70 pounds or something, I think a fully electric drivetrain coupled to a high rev motor can have similar weight and give you a faster car in the end (with much much better fuel economy).

Still not getting what I said about the electric drivetrain. OK, if I guess it right you are trying to design a drive train to provide CVT like gearing, with no finite number gearing ratios, but with electrically coupled generators. Read on.

Originally Posted by serialk11r

The main thing standing in the way is the size of the generator; if we gear it so that the engine spins at 1/3 the speed of the generator, so we can use a smaller one, there are more losses. So this is just a pipe dream waiting on stuff in the future

It is not about the size of the generator!! Do you think the electric power in this case came from a nuclear fusion unit with no power limit? Let's face it. You have an ICE serves as an alternator to generate electricity. The valuable power from gasoline is used merely to run the generator to generate electricity. Then you use that electricity to drive another electric motor to power the wheel. Now, honestly, what is the difference between this approach and the other serial hybrid solution found in GM Volts?

You seem to forget one thing: where is your power transfer? Why on earth would you want to waste the power generated by ICE to power a generator for the gearing purpose?

If, on the other hand, the requirement of this so-called electrically-coupled transmission is to provide gearless transfer of power from ICE to the wheel, you should think of some other medium that can transfer the power from engine to the wheel. A viscous liquid that can spin wheels at different rates based on certain control logic might be an idea. But definitely not two generators doing energy transfer for no apparent gains.

[serialk11r]

The whole point is to have a CVT without the high frictional loss and limited capacity of a CVT. It also allows easy integration of a hybrid system. Even with current tech it can be better than a CVT.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

The whole point is to have a CVT without the high frictional loss and limited capacity of a CVT. It also allows easy integration of a hybrid system. Even with current tech it can be better than a CVT.

How does the Prius transmission work with the electric motor? Isn't that already pretty much what you described? All I know is that it's a CVT, but doesn't do the belt thing that the others usually do.

[serialk11r]

I just read about Hybrid Synergy Drive...holy shit I never knew that is exactly what the Prius does

In that case, I am very very interested in seeing what Toyota's next hybrid sports car comes out like, it could be rather ridiculously fast if they do it right Higher capacity motors, active cooled, high rev engine, maybe turbo! Turbo would sure be nice with an Atkinson cycle engine, about as close to the ideal thermodynamic cycle as you can get with internal combustion :P

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I just read about Hybrid Synergy Drive...holy shit I never knew that is exactly what the Prius does

In that case, I am very very interested in seeing what Toyota's next hybrid sports car comes out like, it could be rather ridiculously fast if they do it right Higher capacity motors, active cooled, high rev engine, maybe turbo! Turbo would sure be nice with an Atkinson cycle engine, about as close to the ideal thermodynamic cycle as you can get with internal combustion :P

sounds like the rumors around the new evo

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I just can't believe there are people that want a sports car with an automatic. Makes me kinda sick. They might as well isolate the hell out of the car too, what's the point of letting the driver experience any part of driving the car...

I'm old(ish?) and still hate automatics, and always will, no matter how good and fancy they are.

to be fair there are people who want a sports car but have physical limitations preventing them from operation a conventional manual trans. also there are automatics that are just plain faster and sportier than manuals. i dont want one but they absolutely have a purpose

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Exage

Yes, the mystery is unfolding now Dimman... However nothing is going to sway the fact that neither of the K20 engines in the RSX has enough torque down low for SUB-FT86 regardless of transmission type.

[SUB-FT86]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I just can't believe there are people that want a sports car with an automatic. Makes me kinda sick. They might as well isolate the hell out of the car too, what's the point of letting the driver experience any part of driving the car...

I'm old(ish?) and still hate automatics, and always will, no matter how good and fancy they are.

Let me explain why I don't like manuals for the most part. I hate the clutch and abrupt downshifting. The clutch in most cars I can never feel the engagement point unless its a heavy clutch. Hondas have terribly light clutches and I tried to drive a s2k and couldnt move it without jerking the damn thing. Also manuals are pricier to maintain and a lot of them suffer from grinding issues and clutch wear. I prefer a 370z like automatic where it can be sporty when I want it and smooth for the traffic filled days.

[Exage]

Originally Posted by Dimman

The whole k20 auto thing reminds me of the worst automotive travesty Toyota has committed in recent history. 2ZZGE, meet your optional 4 speed automatic...

hahaha. The 1st Gen tC also had a silly 4-speed automatic as well, but it probably works better with the 2AZ torque.

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Let me explain why I don't like manuals for the most part. I hate the clutch and abrupt downshifting. The clutch in most cars I can never feel the engagement point unless its a heavy clutch. Hondas have terribly light clutches and I tried to drive a s2k and couldnt move it without jerking the damn thing. Also manuals are pricier to maintain and a lot of them suffer from grinding issues and clutch wear. I prefer a 370z like automatic where it can be sporty when I want it and smooth for the traffic filled days.

You would absolutely love my XRS (friendly sarcasm inbound). In addition to the light clutch it has what I can only describe as a hair trigger throttle or on/off switch (I think there was a TSB for a flash but the previous owner seemed to neglect those).

I however would be hesitant to put all the blame on the S2000. Simply because of your unfamiliarity with the vehicle. With that being said the S2000 will be more difficult to drive smoothly (especially at first) then the 350Z/370Z. With the appropriate seat time I believe it is possible.

Manual transmission premature grinding issues and clutch wear are from either abuse/improper use of the clutch, unless of course it's a Mustang 5.0 or similar design flaw (then you're forgiven).

I'm not so sure that manual transmissions are more expensive to maintain (I'll have to check that one). I know they're a hell of a lot cheaper to replace or repair than if something similar pops on on an automatic, and the price gap will get larger with more sophisticate automatics hitting the market.

[Leeky]

Im sure Toyota will make an LSD standard on all cars including the Auto. The Twin Turbo Supra got an LSD regardless of Auto or Manual.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by madfast

you mean like in the LF-A?

Something like that. The MR2-Spyder had one. It failed cause it lacked faster upshifts and an automatic mode.

Originally Posted by n2oinferno

I don't see why a dual clutch is out of the picture. I had one in my GTI, and it was a great transmission for a car starting under 23k. I do have a manual preference, but the newer automatics are great for performance. I keep saying I definitely want a manual for my next vehicle, but I'd be lying if I said I'm completely discounting the auto if it's built for performance.

Weight, cost. VAG already had a DSG spread over x amount of models to lower costs.

Originally Posted by madfast

i dont think they make a dual clutch. and to be honest, if they can make an auto as good as the IS-F, do they really need to?

Precisely.

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I just read about Hybrid Synergy Drive...holy shit I never knew that is exactly what the Prius does

In that case, I am very very interested in seeing what Toyota's next hybrid sports car comes out like, it could be rather ridiculously fast if they do it right Higher capacity motors, active cooled, high rev engine, maybe turbo! Turbo would sure be nice with an Atkinson cycle engine, about as close to the ideal thermodynamic cycle as you can get with internal combustion :P

That would be a miller cycle engine.

FWIW, I think if an engaging transmission solution can be found, and the weight problem solved, very awesome things could be done with a hybrid sports car.

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Let me explain why I don't like manuals for the most part. I hate the clutch and abrupt downshifting. The clutch in most cars I can never feel the engagement point unless its a heavy clutch. Hondas have terribly light clutches and I tried to drive a s2k and couldnt move it without jerking the damn thing. Also manuals are pricier to maintain and a lot of them suffer from grinding issues and clutch wear. I prefer a 370z like automatic where it can be sporty when I want it and smooth for the traffic filled days.

i.e. You fail.

[serialk11r]

Not Miller, Miller uses dynamic compressor driven by engine power to supercharge the engine, which means it has increased efficiency over a standard N/A engine, but if you run any more pressure than is needed to expand the burning mix to atmospheric pressure you are still losing energy. Turbo helps pick some of that energy back up, allowing much more specific power, at only a slight efficiency disadvantage to a crippled extremely short duration Miller cycle.

Since HSD takes away all the "feel" anyways, I hope Toyota turbos this hybrid sports car.

Edit: my bad, miller cycle engines usually use a positive displacement pump, which means the only benefit provided is the option of intercooling. A turbo, tuned 2GR-FXE would be pretty cool

[SUB-FT86]

Matador thinks he is a know it all. Do me a favor dude and go kill yourself. I had a feeling someone would come with a ignorant post. If you cant respect my opinion you can do what I said earlier.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

Matador thinks he is a know it all. Do me a favor dude and go kill yourself. I had a feeling someone would come with a ignorant post. If you cant respect my opinion you can do what I said earlier.

Well in his defense some of your points were wrong. Manuals are easier to fix and cheap to maintain. I get more mileage out of a clutch than I've ever gotten out of any of my automatics (granted I've only owned two automatics long enough for them to fail).

100k+ street (and some track) miles and 60 hours of wheel to wheel racing on the clutch I just replaced. I can't complain about that.

I never had jerky shifts or starts with my S2K unless I messed up. Same with my other cars (Hondas and non-Hondas).

Internal trans wear (synchros) can happen all the time but most cars hit the junkyard before synchros are replaced, unless it's a design flaw issue, a rough driving owner (or abusive owner), etc.

Other items wear on both (seals, etc). Autos have their own issues with wear also.

Clutch wear, well sure it eventually wears down. They aren't that expensive to replace when you look at the mileage a responisble owner will get out of a clutch.. the price per mile isn't very high.

What you lose with the auto in driver involvement/engagement and fun far outweigh the cost of occasional clutch repairs.. and occasional clutch repairs are far less expensive than having an auto rebuilt (2k for my Toyota Cressida's back in the day, and it never was right after Toyota rebuilt it, they ended up rebuilding it 2 more times and it still had issues - not toyota's fault, just the mechs at the local dealer I'm sure).

Plus I can easily replace a clutch and rebuild a manual trans, autos are black magic that I would never want to work on :P