KPower Industries K24 swap

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I don't know why you are comparing the 86 to a luxury car with an under-stressed 3.5L V6. Drop a K20 in the car, and you will equally need to rev it out, and it will feel high strung and underwhelming in terms of power-to-weight. Obviously the K24 will feel better, but not a whole lot different that the FA24 will feel. The K24 will likely be easy to modify for more peak power, but you probably won't find huge gains without significant forced induction over an equally modified FA24.

I would consider the swap if my motor went, and if I had an itch for something different. Maybe someday.

I am comparing engines, not chassis. The Toyota 3.5 V6 operates in a manner that is way more pleasant (sounds and vibrations). Likewise for the K24. I would argue that even dropping in the K20 in a 86 chassis will significantly richen the 86 driving experience. I have owned a 8th gen SI for 5 years and the drivetrain is sublime and feels way better than the FA20 despite it's lower HP and TQ figures. All this in a heavier FA5 chassis! The sound, the willingness to rev, the power potential.

The FA20 is not refined and as exhilarating to operate, especially the MY 13-16 units. It gets the job done but it's definitely the low point of the car and i am not the only voice with this complaint.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by blackhawkdown

Im a rsx type s owner. The k20 (type s) head flows better than k24. Most k20 and k24 owners do a hybrid build. A k20 head with the k24 block for bigger displacement and torque with a 8k-9k rpm rev limit. Most k20/24 builds can push 350hp all motor reliably.


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Most K20/24 builds pushing 350hp at the flywheel are reliable because they have a built block when they add higher compression pistons to hit those numbers.

Raise your hand if you plan to tear apart the motor to do a big build or if you just want to add some bolt ons. I'm guessing most would use the setup provided in the swap and maybe add E85. A few might do cams. Most will add forced induction down the road instead of doing a NA build, but I'm not saying what people should do. I just hope we don't get carried away with expectations from a K20/24 swap and boltons.

I would suggest someone watch the Gears and Gasoline K24 Swap series I posted then follow it through to the end when he does a full list of the parts and the total price of the build. Compare that number to the whp and ask yourself if your expectations match reality. His Honda is bad ass, btw. It is an all motor, lightweight beast, so no one needs to convince me that it isn't fruitful. I'm just trying to balance expectations with reality.

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by blackhawkdown

Im a rsx type s owner. The k20 (type s) head flows better than k24. Most k20 and k24 owners do a hybrid build. A k20 head with the k24 block for bigger displacement and torque with a 8k-9k rpm rev limit. Most k20/24 builds can push 350hp all motor reliably.


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Thanks, this is good info. I knew the RSX-S was one of the better flowing K series head. Do you know how the K24A2 head compared to the K20Z3 (8th gen si)? I see K20Z3 long blocks for relatively cheap these days.

[Petah78]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Most K20/24 builds pushing 350hp at the flywheel are reliable because they have a built block when they add higher compression pistons to hit those numbers.

Raise your hand if you plan to tear apart the motor to do a big build or if you just want to add some bolt ons. I'm guessing most would use the setup provided in the swap and maybe add E85. A few might do cams. Most will add forced induction down the road instead of doing a NA build, but I'm not saying what people should do. I just hope we don't get carried away with expectations from a K20/24 swap and boltons.

I would suggest someone watch the Gears and Gasoline K24 Swap series I posted then follow it through to the end when he does a full list of the parts and the total price of the build. Compare that number to the whp and ask yourself if your expectations match reality. His Honda is bad ass, btw. It is an all motor, lightweight beast, so no one needs to convince me that it isn't fruitful. I'm just trying to balance expectations with reality.

This is very true. But i am guessing even with bolt ons, and some light head work (cams and valvetrain upgrades) to get to 250whp reliably will be hella fun in the 86 chassis. =)

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Petah78

I am comparing engines, not chassis. The Toyota 3.5 V6 operates in a manner that is way more pleasant (sounds and vibrations). Likewise for the K24. I would argue that even dropping in the K20 in a 86 chassis will significantly richen the 86 driving experience. I have owned a 8th gen SI for 5 years and the drivetrain is sublime and feels way better than the FA20 despite it's lower HP and TQ figures. All this in a heavier FA5 chassis! The sound, the willingness to rev, the power potential.

The FA20 is not refined and as exhilarating to operate, especially the MY 13-16 units. It gets the job done but it's definitely the low point of the car and i am not the only voice with this complaint.

I know. You are comparing a lower compression, lower strung 3.5L V6 from a luxury car to a higher compression, higher strung 2L I4. That 3.5L is going to have a much more broad power band. It is also making a power stroke more often, so it will feel smooth. It is also detuned compare to the FA20, so it is not scraping for every ounce of power. Its power band has been smoothed out instead, so it is pleasant to drive. The boxer motor is more balanced than the V6, but I'm sure the FA20 keeps the balancing shafts for the secondary forces to a minimum, in a similar way that the K20 does in the CTR versus the same motor in the Accord 2.0T, where harshness is sacrificed for a higher redline and peak power, so again, not even close to an apples to apples comparison.

Check the debates between the Honda and Toyota fanboys, and you get very different perspectives about the motors. Many Toyota fans complain that the Honda motors don't sound great or don't have much spirit or whatever. It is subjective. It goes the same in the Subie crowd, who enjoy their boxer rumble and growl. To each their own. I think a K20A2 from a RSX Type S would have been cool too. Even with less torque, the extra 725 RPMS would be nice.

[Petah78]

FYI, i did email K industries about the support for the newer chassis (wiring) and drive shaft and this was their response:

Yes, the pinouts are all the same for the 2017-2020 cars. We are working with Haltech right now to confirm that the CAN protocols are also the same. If they are not, we will need to pull the CAN on the 2017-2020 cars and get that added to the software as well. But one way or another we will be supporting all vehicles from 2013-2020, and if any minor harness changes end up being needed then we can easily handle that.

Yes, a custom driveshaft is needed. We have a custom 3" aluminum shaft in our test car. Assuming that works well for us, that will be our go-to solution and we will keep them in stock. We have also considered shortening the front section of the two piece shaft, but that does introduce some more complexity since we'd still need to balance the entire two piece shaft as one, and would need to offer a core exchange program.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by JesseG

I love Honda engines, especially ones with real VTEC. So this is a really interesting swap.
That being said, I don’t understand the hate the FA20 always gets. You would think it’s the worst engine ever made if you only read reviews. Personally I think it’s a really fun and quirky engine, and it’s willing to rev. Not as eagerly as a K series Honda engine, but it’s no slouch. And I average about 30mpg. I completely understand that people might feel a little let down with the FA, because the chassis is so good on the twins. But it wouldn’t have been any better if let’s say Toyota put a 2ZR or M20 in the car. Unless they upgraded one of those engines a lot. (Those are both really good and reliable engines, but not very sporty).
What upsets me is seeing what they will do to make the new GR Yaris so exciting to drive, but the 86 is sort of left as is for 8 years. I’m really hoping the FA24 will solve some of the deficiencies of the FA20.
Anyway, sorry for the long rant. I agree that a K24 is an improvement over the FA20.


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This.

Folks forget the FA20 makes K20A / K20Z1/3/4/5 power, with 1000 less RPM, while producing something like 1/10th the emissions.

The FA20 is quite good for what it is.


Disclosure: I've owned and own K powered vehicles, and currently daily drive a K20Z1

[CSG Mike]

It's unfortunate that the guy who K swapped his car using the OEM ecu deleted his stuff

[Racecomp Engineering]

K swaps are just super popular right now. Between this build, the gears & gasoline folks, and that Ferrari 308...there's a lot of hype right now. Still cool, and I'm keeping my eye on this one but it's pretty unlikely I'd ever do it. I'm also pretty anxious to drive a FA24.

Originally Posted by ZDan

I'm thinking of buying my old 240z back... The built 3.1 liter (250ish rwhp) has already gone to another car, so I'm thinking F2xC or K-swap. Should knock 100+ lb. right off the nose of the car, which was already 50/50, with potential for similar hp...

I'm thinking of a K20 swap for my Datsun roadster. I'd prefer someone else pioneer that one though. The usual swap is an SR20DE but the price on those motors is going through the roof.

- Andrew

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

It's unfortunate that the guy who K swapped his car using the OEM ecu deleted his stuff

Unfortunate, yet most people weren't going to use his thread as a template. Most people weren't about to splice a wiring harness themselves, or tune the car themselves, or weld up a CD009 or custom oil pan themselves, make some headers or turbo manifold themselves, etc. It was entertaining, but swaps are serious work. Give people a Pure Motorsport Motec, wiring harness, header, oil pan, etc, so it is mostly plug and play, and they still may be overwhelmed with the idea of sourcing a motor, prepping and dressing it for install, pulling the FA20 and dropping a K24 in, and completing all the odds and ends to get it 100% functional. Most don't even install their own FI kits, so while I think his efforts were great and entertaining, as he presented them, they were useful for a small, small audience.

[blackhawkdown]

Originally Posted by Petah78

Thanks, this is good info. I knew the RSX-S was one of the better flowing K series head. Do you know how the K24A2 head compared to the K20Z3 (8th gen si)? I see K20Z3 long blocks for relatively cheap these days.

The k20 in the civic has better intake ports compared to the k24 intake port; however, the k24 has a better exhaust camshaft then the civic. Also, your intake manifold is better on the civic.


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[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Unfortunate, yet most people weren't going to use his thread as a template. Most people weren't about to splice a wiring harness themselves, or tune the car themselves, or weld up a CD009 or custom oil pan themselves, make some headers or turbo manifold themselves, etc. It was entertaining, but swaps are serious work. Give people a Pure Motorsport Motec, wiring harness, header, oil pan, etc, so it is mostly plug and play, and they still may be overwhelmed with the idea of sourcing a motor, prepping and dressing it for install, pulling the FA20 and dropping a K24 in, and completing all the odds and ends to get it 100% functional. Most don't even install their own FI kits, so while I think his efforts were great and entertaining, as he presented them, they were useful for a small, small audience.

it could have, eventually, been boiled down to a plug and play type kit. All swaps start ugly, but how it ends up depends on if it's a one-off or being designed to be sold to end users.

[PulsarBeeerz]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Again, let's assume the engine can't be sitting agains the firewall. Let's assume the K24 was matted to the transmission as it is in the 86, then the engine would sit forward pretty far, and the hood would likely have interference issues.

The K24 has a 87x99 bore and stroke, so relatively speaking, that is a long stroke. The 2AZ, aka the Scion TC's 2.4L, has a 86x96 bore and stroke, so slightly shorter by 3mm. The 2AZ motor might be higher and be less compact than the K24 or not; I don't know. Regardless, here is a 2AZ installed in a FRS against the stock transmission:

Buddy he's using an oem oil pan and un modified oem cross member. Haha Yah it would sit higher. Why not assume actually trying to fit the engine in the car along with all the other assumptions? If the car or swap was designed around the engine fitting it would have a crossmember clearanced for it or at least a bespoke oil pan. Have a peak at a current gen miata engine bay to see if your firewall argument holds up...

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

it could have, eventually, been boiled down to a plug and play type kit. All swaps start ugly, but how it ends up depends on if it's a one-off or being designed to be sold to end users.

He could have had plans all along to produce something. Maybe people should wait and see. Maybe he is collaborating with Kpower. Maybe that is why when people asked for a DIY or wiring diagram or whatever, they didn't really get a response.