Article posted on the valve recall engine murders

[ka-t_240]

Originally Posted by Tgutz21

The car was working perfectly fine and I not kidding when I say I didn’t even drive it a quarter mile. I just felt uneasy when they emailed me asking for service records. They technically haven’t told me I’m responsible for the damage, but I’m just taking precautions.

That is why mine is not being done right now. Its winter, so the car would need to be towed to the dealer. I don't think that would be a good "sign" if one were to have issues later.

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by why?

I feel you are putting far too much trust in these technicians, and we've seen what has happened. There is a chance now that they've repeatedly stressed who should do this stuff that it won't happen again, but I just don't think any of these people are worth trusting at the moment.

All the issues that come from the boxer engine are totally about people unfamiliar with them and screwing them up because they refuse to take the time and handle it like they should.

Where did I say anything about it not being the tech's fault?? I only said that boxers aren't magically sealed, you just have to follow the factory procedure carefully.


Anything happening here is 100% the fault of the tech, or a lack of proper training.

[Summerwolf]

Originally Posted by maslin

Edit: Modern engines are easier to build that the old ones. No ring gap to check, no plastiguage, no cork gaskets. You order parts and put them together, then you have an engine.

.....What? How do you build an engine without checking clearances on anything......


This is out of a shop?

[ermax]

Originally Posted by Summerwolf

.....What? How do you build an engine without checking clearances on anything......


This is out of a shop?

That was my thought too. Sure they mark the crank, block and rods and you check the chart to know what bearing to use but you should still check the clearances. The markings on the components were added when the components were new. The markings don’t account for 100k miles of wear.

[maslin]

We don't put pistons in cars with 100k, maybe 20 or 30k? No one is paying $8k for a tiny rattle under light throttle sometimes on Tuesdays when it's cold. That's warranty BS, warranty on fancy cars doesn't go the long.

You don't rebuild modern engines for wear. Not in the business I've been in for 15 years. I haven't replaced 1 piston ring for wear, not one. Valve guide seals maybe 5 times? Maybe.

It just isn't how it works anymore. You drive a car, you fix things when there's a check engine light, you trade it in when the repairs cost more than the car, it ships to California or Russia and is never seen again.

Grinding noise from the transfer case on your 2008 C300? Oh, that will be a $9k transmission because the transfer case isn't serviceable. That totals the car. Cars are throw away at this point, it's actually hard to believe Toyota/Subaru took on this recall, I'm sure they wouldn't have if they knew they'd be putting engines in cars worth $12k.

[ermax]

So a engine is no longer classified as modern once it has 100k on it? Sounds like what you are saying is your dealership only works on low mileage engines and therefor don’t check clearances. But that doesn’t mean modern engines don’t wear and don’t need clearance checks.

It’s also odd a few posts back you made it sound like dealers still crack open engines but in this post you make it sound like everything is disposable.

I think Toyota/Subaru only took this project on to pass the liability off to the dealers. I suspect it will backfire once lawyers get involved.

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by maslin

... Cars are throw away at this point, it's actually hard to believe Toyota/Subaru took on this recall, I'm sure they wouldn't have if they knew they'd be putting engines in cars worth $12k.

I really have enjoyed my FRS up until this point; it's at the dealership now 600 miles post-recall work being evaluated for a new engine. It's the first Subaru-engine-based vehicle I've ever owned, and the first Japanese car since a '92 Celica... been mostly BMW/Audi/Mercedes (all older) cars since then. Depending upon the outcome, this may either be my last Toyota/Subaru product or the continuation of what has been up until now an excellent relationship with the dealership. It's possible that concerns like that may be part of the reasoning behind the recall, although, as usual, protection from expensive lawsuits and safety concerns are no doubt the primary reasons.

[maslin]

Originally Posted by ermax

So a engine is no longer classified as modern once it has 100k on it? Sounds like what you are saying is your dealership only works on low mileage engines and therefor don’t check clearances. But that doesn’t mean modern engines don’t wear and don’t need clearance checks.

It’s also odd a few posts back you made it sound like dealers still crack open engines but in this post you make it sound like everything is disposable.

I think Toyota/Subaru only took this project on to pass the liability off to the dealers. I suspect it will backfire once lawyers get involved.

I'm saying a modern engine as in one designed in the last 15 years. Dealerships aren't hot rod shops, they aren't tearing engines down to swap cams and advance the timing on your MSD box.

Dealers tear engines down because there's a document saying a new set of pistons will fix some noise. Or a cam wiped out a journal and it needs a head, or a timing chain stretched and took out a rail.

People don't refresh engines with new rings and rope seals. They run them until they don't and they move on.

If there was no recall on the FA20 and main bearings were coming apart regularly at 105k miles how many cars would be going to auction or the junk yard? How many people would be dropping the cash to replace an engine in a car worth $10-15k? What about in 10 years when the car is worth $5-10K?

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

I really have enjoyed my FRS up until this point; it's at the dealership now 600 miles post-recall work being evaluated for a new engine. It's the first Subaru-engine-based vehicle I've ever owned, and the first Japanese car since a '92 Celica... been mostly BMW/Audi/Mercedes (all older) cars since then. Depending upon the outcome, this may either be my last Toyota/Subaru product or the continuation of what has been up until now an excellent relationship with the dealership. It's possible that concerns like that may be part of the reasoning behind the recall, although, as usual, protection from expensive lawsuits and safety concerns are no doubt the primary reasons.

I totally get it that it would suck to be one of the teeny, tiny number of cars with a failure after the work but keep in mind they make millions of them that run their whole life with no issues. This forum and the similar social media sites are focused on a failure that affects one small subset of the car and a minuscule number of the manufacturers overall production and it is not accurately representative of the whole. If you go check out any other car forum you will without a doubt find a model and year where something similar happened. This sort of thing is not new nor even as bad as it seems (unless of course when you as an individual are impacted) and has happened since the first mass produced cars hit the streets. Don't let it sour you on the brand.

[tomm.brz]

but you don't know how many recalls are done untill now, how many of them failed and how many will fail... it s not much time they started doing them so you don't know if it s just a tiny amount that failed... to me it seems not irrelevant the cars that failed that were posted here in the forum

[MuseChaser]

Thanks, T.. I get it. It's not so much that I'd be soured on the brand because of a single instance of a messed up recall/motor; the Toyotas and Mistubishis we've had in our fleet in past years have all been very good to excellent in all respects, and I've got a 2005 Land Cruiser now that we love. The "souring" would come from Toyota not taking care of the problem, and not from thinking that all Subies or Toyotas are junk. They most assuredly are not.

[ermax]

Originally Posted by maslin

I'm saying a modern engine as in one designed in the last 15 years. Dealerships aren't hot rod shops, they aren't tearing engines down to swap cams and advance the timing on your MSD box.

Dealers tear engines down because there's a document saying a new set of pistons will fix some noise. Or a cam wiped out a journal and it needs a head, or a timing chain stretched and took out a rail.

People don't refresh engines with new rings and rope seals. They run them until they don't and they move on.

If there was no recall on the FA20 and main bearings were coming apart regularly at 105k miles how many cars would be going to auction or the junk yard? How many people would be dropping the cash to replace an engine in a car worth $10-15k? What about in 10 years when the car is worth $5-10K?

Well the original question was something along the lines of, “do dealers even open engines anymore”. You said yes, now you say no. My FA20 didn’t even make it to 105k before it spun #3. I didn’t drop 10-15 on an engine though. I dropped ~2150 for a short block, FIPG, coolant, oil, filter and gasket kit and I’ve put 8K on it since. IMO a car shouldn’t spin bearings this soon though.

As for modern engines not getting refreshed. It’s not the engine that has changed in the last 15 years it’s just the throw away mentality that has changed.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by tomm.brz

but you don't know how many recalls are done untill now, how many of them failed and how many will fail... it s not much time they started doing them so you don't know if it s just a tiny amount that failed... to me it seems not irrelevant the cars that failed that were posted here in the forum

Exactly we don't know! If you wish to presume that the majority of what has been done has failed then that is your call. We don't hear from the success stories though so to make that presumption is baseless.
The affected cars are a limited range of one year. The car has been made for 6 years. Even though the 2013 was the highest production it is still a small subset of a limited car. Even if they all failed it would still be a tiny number compared to the total output of Subaru and Toyota. My point was do not judge the companies based upon that microscopic failure rate.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

Thanks, T.. I get it. It's not so much that I'd be soured on the brand because of a single instance of a messed up recall/motor; the Toyotas and Mistubishis we've had in our fleet in past years have all been very good to excellent in all respects, and I've got a 2005 Land Cruiser now that we love. The "souring" would come from Toyota not taking care of the problem, and not from thinking that all Subies or Toyotas are junk. They most assuredly are not.

I don't think there has been a single person totally refused an engine replacement yet. They know what the issue is and will make good. Getting there will be a pain in the ass for the owner but they can't help that.