C&D: Aaron Robinson Scion Must Die!

[Hippophobia]

Article is pointless. I'm sure the same things could be said about companies such as Hyundai and Kia. Companies that just popped up and offered REALLY low budget cars in collaboration with other companies for a while until it really established itself as a brand.

Now they have vehicles like the Genesis and Optima which are both very attractive. I'm almost positive there were similar statements made about both of those companies (and other the other big names) when they just started production.

As far as the Plymouth statements, seriously? Didn't Plymouth build its own legacy with cars like the Fury, GTX, Road Runner and Barracuda? They just were failed by Chrysler if you ask me. The only way Scion is to keep viable is if Toyota decides to use their production and release fantastic cars (read Scion FR-S) under the Scion badge. "Take one for the team" as it were.

[FRiSson]

Big ado about nothing. Mr. Robinson is pining away for something that doesn't matter nearly as much as it did in his youth - brand. Sure, Scion doesn't really stand for much other than as a bin for Toyota's quirkier and cheaper cars. But Toyota doesn't stand for much anymore either. It is known as a quality maker of cars that share few distinguishing features other than a certain blandness and no-offense styling. His desire to see the "Celica" reborn is really out of touch. To me, that name always sounded like an insect and the cars bearing that name varied too widely in quality to lend the name a solid identity.

Even Toyota's successful Lexus franchise is beset with a kind of jewel-like blandness - like heavy but plain, gold and diamond jewelry. Lexus is a luxury brand that stands for little other than a desire to avoid risk by its owners.

If Toyota really wanted to start in a new direction, it would have created a TRD nameplate akin to Chrysler's SRT. But since they put FR-S into the Scion bin, their second best choice is to remake Scion's image. After all, that shouldn't take too long. They have made a good start by dumping the dowdy XD and the fuel-pig XB. The IQ was a bad decision, but I have a hunch that it will be rare enough not to make too much of a negative impact. If Toyota plays its cards right, and builds Scions along the lines of the FR-S, and stays away from (idiot) marketing consultants, it will be able to remake Scions image in just a few years.

As far as Mr. Robinson goes, he's stuck in the past.

[Mazdaspeed]

I think he has a point. Before I found my BRZ I was pretty well set on buying an FR-S and just about every person I mentioned it to said "Yeah, but it's a Scion." or "I really like the car but I wouldn't want to drive a Scion." The company's image needs some serious work and the FR-S could be the catalyst that helps turn the company around, but Toyota definitely has some work to do.

[Celicadude]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

If it was called a Celica, I would have visited the Subaru dealership instead. I've never revered the Celica. It's a FWD high school girls car IMHO and only a handful are AWD. It really doesn't share any heritage with the 86.

The Celica was only a FR layout from 1970-1985... Everything after, was designed for the cheer squad. Also none of them were real "sporty" or had the heritage of such until the stuck the AWD in them did Rally.

So yeah, the article was good right up until THAT. Why call it a Celica if branding it as a Toyota? Why not just a Toyota 86? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

Sorry for the fanboy response but I'd have to disagree with the notion that there is no heritage behind the celica. Without the celica the supra would have never been born (celica supra anyone) not to mention the many years of rallying. I agree that the 7th gen was definitely not the best send off for the car, and was more an attempt to compete with the integra's and civic si's of the day. However the 86/FRS was inspired by the old rwd corollas (aka fun corollas). But today the corolla is a fwd grocery getter no where even close to the sporty car it once was. So I wouldn't necessarily throw away the old corolla ae86 heritage simply because the new corolla is total crap and no where near the car it once was. With that said I would have liked to see a return of the celica nameplate and a return to the celica of old. But I am just fine with it being called the 86/frs/brz. Its a new car for a new generation, with a nod to toyota's past. It's a car. Who cares what it's called.

Now I do agree that this car should not have been made a scion and not because of a badge or a name. My problem with Scion is that they have a way of turning awesome cars into not so awesome cars by being half assed and down right cheap. The only way i could see this car saving the brand is if they let the car sell itself(ie gt86 in full spec) and have the brand follow suit. However i feel that scion is trying to hard to put its vision of what the company stands for in this car (ie strip it and sell it for cheap and call it cool). If scion weren't focused on being hip and cool and focused more on selling sports cars, or just fun to drive cars, i could see things turn around. But as of right now all i see is dumbed down version of awesome jdm cars, under the guise of "customizable" cars. Scion, at least to me, has always meant cheap budget car that attracts old folks. But i feel that the FRS is a step in the right direct so long as Scion the brand doesnt screw it up.

[Dimman]

I've written a great many posts on this subject over the years.

The problems are:

They mis-handled the initial launch so poorly that there is now a negative stigma.

They don't have a product 'aspiration chain' to move Scion buyers into future Toyotas or Lexus, especially in the case of the FR-S.

Options I have proposed in the past:

Kill it. (I rate this decision as 'good')

Move it further down price-wise to compete with Kia/Hyundai for first-time buyers and retirees. (I rate this decision as better than what they are doing now, but not good.)

Move it to parallel Toyota in 'prestige' and price but with interesting and risky tech and designs. It is possible that they are cautiously doing just this with the iQ and FR-S. I proposed a sport sedan that could be developed here at low cost. Take outgoing IS platform, redo front and rear fascia, cloth interior, and current Camry motors. Then offer with manual trans and tune the car to handle.

VAG already does this with Audi and SEAT. Audi gets new model, old tooling goes to SEAT.

This would be a low-cost, genuinely sporty IS, 250 with Camry L4 and 350 with non D4-S V6.

Chaser or Tourer heritage?

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by Celicadude

Sorry for the fanboy response

No apology needed. Well stated.

There is some validity in the name (I don't think much honestly) but more-so validity in the badge. And example of this is the BMW Z3. I think BMW only sold as many of those as they did because it had a BMW bad on it. I think the fact that in the USA, Toyota made this a Scion instead of a Toyota shows us exactly what their goal is. It is not to maximize sales, it is to save a brand. Period.

I knew I was going to ruffle a few feathers by referring to post 1980 Celicas as a girl's car BTW. But for those of you who look to the left of the screen you'll realize I race a girls car so yeah.. there's that.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by nibor33

Oh, and I have had plenty of occasions to use HIDs and heated seats on the way to the track. And, let's face it, these aren't race cars, they're street cars that are fun on the track. So telling me you don't care about HIDs and heated seats is as valid as me telling you I don't care about a passenger seat, back seats, doors, a trunk, a radio, heat, A/C... yawn...

You're right. The FR-S doesn't have a heater to keep you warm or headlights to allow you to drive at night. Heated seats and HIDs are clearly a necessity for your daily commute!

[bestwheelbase]

Wow, such a heated topic!

So who is going to be the first person to put a swan on their FRS?

[YukiHachiRoku]

Label badge whores and identity crisis conspiracy ftw.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by YukiHachiRoku

Label badge whores and identity crisis conspiracy ftw.

This is coming from Toyota, not us.

Their purpose with Scion was to drop the average age of their customers, so they don't become the next Buick (which only survived GM's axe because it has a good image in China for historical reasons).

It is genuinely something that Toyota needs to sort out. I think they've now learned that polishing turds by showing of lambo-doored, neon and TV filled 'youth lifestyle' vehicles is not a long term solution.

They can use Scion to take risks that won't fly on the Toyota side, which they are starting with the iQ and FR-S. However they will need some changes in Toyota and Lexus models to 'bridge' the gap between a car like the FR-S and ANY other TMC model.

[YukiHachiRoku]

Originally Posted by Dimman

This is coming from Toyota, not us.

Their purpose with Scion was to drop the average age of their customers, so they don't become the next Buick (which only survived GM's axe because it has a good image in China for historical reasons).

It is genuinely something that Toyota needs to sort out. I think they've now learned that polishing turds by showing of lambo-doored, neon and TV filled 'youth lifestyle' vehicles is not a long term solution.

They can use Scion to take risks that won't fly on the Toyota side, which they are starting with the iQ and FR-S. However they will need some changes in Toyota and Lexus models to 'bridge' the gap between a car like the FR-S and ANY other TMC model.

and it's hilarious when a lot of FR-S buyers are older people with the money. hence the badge comment. Sometimes these corporations overthink things. Just make a good car and educated people with money will buy them. Seems like a simple concept to me.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by Dimman

However they will need some changes in Toyota and Lexus models to 'bridge' the gap between a car like the FR-S and ANY other TMC model.

It helps that there are not stand-alone Scion dealers. For example, not every vehicle I buy will be a sports car. If you have a great experience with your Scion FR-S, when you have your first kid and your wife needs a sedan/CUV/minivan, you can go to the same dealer that you bought your FR-S and find something that fits your needs while meeting the same expectations you have built from your FR-S ownership experience... just focused toward family instead of sport.

Most people don't buy sports car after sports car after sport car. They own a sports car and then wife and kids come into the picture and priorities change. The next gen IS should be the vehicle that you want to buy after you have kids and the FR-S no longer makes sense. We'll see what they do with it, though.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by YukiHachiRoku

and it's hilarious when a lot of FR-S buyers are older people with the money. hence the badge comment. Sometimes these corporations overthink things. Just make a good car and educated people with money will buy them. Seems like a simple concept to me.

They are thinking long term and repeat buyers. They already make good cars. It's just that young people are not interested in them. I'm a Toyota fanboi, but cannot think of a single TMC product that would interest me until we get to the $ range of an IS-F.

So even though the FR-S is awesome, then what? If I need a family car later but still good dynamics where do I go? Camry? No way. So they have some problems still.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by nibor33

...Oh, and I have had plenty of occasions to use HIDs and heated seats on the way to the track. And, let's face it, these aren't race cars, they're street cars that are fun on the track. So telling me you don't care about HIDs and heated seats is as valid as me telling you I don't care about a passenger seat, back seats, doors, a trunk, a radio, heat, A/C... yawn...

I'm not 100% sure I understand what you are saying here, but let me try this.

I don't care about HIDs or heated seats, or a subpar OEM Nav system. Whatever the badge (Toyota, Subaru, Scion) I would have bought the spec that didn't have them regardless of the price differential.

If you had the option for the track (which seems to be what you are saying you are buying it for), wouldn't you have liked to have had the option to buy the base spec 86(regardless of badge) sold in Japan?

Seems like the same logic to me.