Forza 3 vs. GT5 Discussion Thread

[Snaps]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I've played both games quite a bit. I still like both for different reasons.

I will say that the standard cars in GT5 are.. well.. absolute crap. The handling of many stock cars is off quite a bit also (same can be said for FM3 there).

Neither is "realistic" IMO, at least given my limited experience (10 years of track driving different vehicles).

I like the customization options better in FM3 (no, not the stickers/paint/etc parts), and the interior views for every car.

The tracks (surface, surrounding area including tire walls, armco, etc) are much better in GT5. The premium cars in GT5 blow away FM3.

The shader in GT5 is horrible, call it 1080p taxing the system too much or whatever you want, it shouldn't have been released that way (maybe this has been fixed in 1.03? haven't played 1.03 yet).

From a gaming perspective, I enjoy both. If there's a premium car that I want to drive, I turn on the PS3 and play GT5. If there's any other car I want to drive I turn on the 360 and play FM3. Same with some of the fake tracks.

My biggest problem with GT5 is probably that every time I play it there's a voice in the back of my head that says "Seriously.. it took six years for this?" I was expecting FM3 with slightly better physics and better graphics all around, interior views for every car, etc.. IMO that's what leads to disappointment for many racing game fans.

I'm not sure either game is actually "better" holistically than the other.

Great post. +1

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by BoostJunkie

I like the fact that they put the diff models on there, I'm a fan of s13's, s14's & s15's. I like that they put the R32,33,34, and now the 35 on the game, why Is that a bad thing? Granted there are a couple cars I would also like to see, but I like that they were perticular with there brands and not just put a single 240sx or just one type of supra. But that's just me. I do wish that they would have put the kouki s14 on there instead of the zenki

Well it's not just an S13, S14, and an S15.

For EG's for example, you can get a 91, 92, 93 and 95. All SiR-II's. There's zero real difference between them, yet they count as 4 cars... That doesn't seem at least a little pointless?

I can understand USDM S2000s, having a 01 and a 04, there's a difference there. I can understand R32/R33/R34 skylines, the 00 Z06 (which would really be a 01 I'd imagine) and the 04 Z06 (both C5s)etc.. there's differences between those...

You can even drive USDM S2000 Type-V's which don't exist (in the US I mean)

There are multiple of these things though, same car, just different years, etc.. just doesn't make sense other than to push the car count up over 1,000. For the most part it's not too bad, but some of them just seem grandfathered in without doing any cleanup.

I don't even really have a problem with the pointless cars in the game that it's unlikely anyone would ever drive in the game, at least they are different.

Then again, I guess multiple of the same car doesn't hurt anything.

Oh, and there are 96 S14s, which in Japan would have been the kouki, so GT5 has both according to the car list. (I can't confirm as I haven't bought any Silvias in the game so far)

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by BoostJunkie

Ok y'all may laugh, but what do y'all mean by premium cars? I've heard it used several times. Like actual race cars? Theme cars? Company cars?

Premium GT5 cars = Highly detailed and 500,000 Polygons (200 cars have this attention)

GT5 Standard cars = Ported and tuned code from the previous GT (less polygons, more like 150-200,000 Polygons and no cockpit view).

By comparison, FM3 cars have 170,000 polygons

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

In GT5 there are two types of cars, Premium and Standard.

Premium cars are the only ones really modeled specifically for GT5. They are the only ones that allow you to change wheels if you are into that, and most importantly the only ones with an interior view and the higher polygons.

Standard cars are basically GT4 cars imported.. maybe some slight improvements but not much.. they look like trash in the car compared to the premium cars and compared to FM3.

800 of the 1,000 cars are standard cars, only 200 are premium cars. (although I still find the 1,000 cars laughable when 30 or whatever of them are 180sx/silvia/sil80s, another 10 or whatever are different skylines, 4 are EG civics, etc. I actually wonder how many actually unique cars there are in the game). And then there's true brilliance like have a 97 (or whatever year) CTR as a Standard AND as a Premium.. for some reason they just needed to keep the standard version too? Oh yeah.. marketing.. that's right.. "1,000 cars!!".

Perhaps you should research before commenting as well.

[Dragonitti]

So far you guys have only talked about Standard cars as being the negative. What will you say when they get phased out and more Premium cars show up in their place? I have thus far listed more than ONE particular feature I didn't like with Forza. All I keep seeing from the opposition in this debate is the raising of the "Standard Car" flag.

How about something else you don't like cause the standard car thing you keep commenting about you seem to not really even know about....Claiming it's a marketing gimmick. Again, we already have seen what GT5 can produce, the Standard cars is NOT a representation of the Best of the Best in GT5. Since FM3's cars are all the same, that IS the best it can deliver.

FM3 can't even touch the Premium cars of GT5, so you make a case for it by comparing it to the Weakest element of GT5 to make it feel better about being on FM3. It's not really working out for me though, I would like to hear opinions about what other parts of GT5 you don't like.


By the way 1.03 was two updates back. We are on 1.05 now.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

Perhaps you should research before commenting as well.

?? From the car list:
P/S Honda CIVIC TYPE R (EK) ‘97

That's the part you bolded so that's the part I assumed your comment referred.

So both ARE included, and it's kinda pointless to keep the standard when you have the premium version already.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

So far you guys have only talked about Standard cars as being the negative. What will you say when they get phased out and more Premium cars show up in their place? I have thus far listed more than ONE particular feature I didn't like with Forza. All I keep seeing from the opposition in this debate is the raising of the "Standard Car" flag.

How about something else you don't like cause the standard car thing you keep commenting about you seem to not really even know about....Claiming it's a marketing gimmick. Again, we already have seen what GT5 can produce, the Standard cars is NOT a representation of the Best of the Best in GT5. Since FM3's cars are all the same, that IS the best it can deliver.

FM3 can't even touch the Premium cars of GT5, so you make a case for it by comparing it to the Weakest element of GT5 to make it feel better about being on FM3. It's not really working out for me though, I would like to hear opinions about what other parts of GT5 you don't like.


By the way 1.03 was two updates back. We are on 1.05 now.

IMO it is part marketing. Saying you have 1,000 cars is going to sell MORE games than "We have 500 cars". That's common sense.

Read my first post in the thread and there's more in there, including things that I agree with you on.

I'd LOVE for the standard cars to be replaced by Premium cars. Of course, they've had six years to include them (yes I understand SDLC and understand that they didn't really have 6 years for that one part, but the game has been in development for an extremely long time, you'd think they'd get more than 200 done).

Sorry, I haven't had time to play lately so it updated 1.03, I'm guessing it won't jump updates, and has to do them sequentially, so perhaps next time I try to run the game it'll be 1.04, then 1.05. So maybe 1.05 fixed the shader then? Better?

I must admit that I did not read the entire thread, so I'm not sure which FM3 points that you have made that no one has replied to. What are they? I'll likely agree since FM3 is *far* from perfect but maybe not.. :shrug:

[Dragonitti]

This snip sorta gives you an idea of how GT is created:

“It was only when I launched the IS F over the Nurburgring’s numerous jumping spots (in the real race) that I realized the landing areas were not all flat, as I originally thought in the game,” [Yamauchi] says. “Some landing patches are sloped to the left, some to the right. This is just one of the many challenges of the track, and amendments I will make to the game. As I pushed the car around the 15.5-mile track, I also realized that some details were different. Some trees which drivers use for cornering or braking markers were not quite in the right place, while some small buildings need to be adjusted too.”

You can't get that simply by taking pictures of race tracks..




A section I copied from an interview done with Kaz...

[GameBlog Fr] You mentioned the concept of premium cars. can you tell us more?
[KY] Standard cars are actually cars from previous games in the series. We had less work to convert them to the PS3. They were included to provide a greater variety in the cars. Premium cars however, are like a glimpse of the future of the GT series. Moreover, and we have mentioned before, we may have gone too far into detail on PS3. What we have done is perhaps more appropriate for a future console.

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

?? From the car list:
P/S Honda CIVIC TYPE R (EK) ‘97

That's the part you bolded so that's the part I assumed your comment referred.

So both ARE included, and it's kinda pointless to keep the standard when you have the premium version already.

The part I'm referring to in terms of "Researching". I am referring to the "WHY" there are some cars that have both. It is not so they can simply fill up the roster and count the same car twice just for the sake of marketing.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

The part I'm referring to in terms of "Researching". I am referring to the "WHY" there are some cars that have both. It is not so they can simply fill up the roster and count the same car twice just for the sake of marketing.

You can skip importing a car that you already have a Premium version of, or intend to have.

Sorry, still seems completely pointless to me. It's not a slam against the game itself, but that little bit of work put into converting a standard car when you intended/already had a premium car = time that could have been better spent adding another premium car, or another feature, etc, etc.

Same way I feel about the graphics and crap you can add in FM3, I wish that time would have been spent on something real instead of pointless crap... I guess I can almost see the point in the graphics, I'm sure someone out there loves that section of FM3.. I seriously doubt anyone loves the standard version of a S/P car over the premium.

To me, it's still just marketing. If I were in charge of the project all of the S/P cars would have just been P.. and there'd be no Daihatsu Midget II at all :P

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

IMO it is part marketing. Saying you have 1,000 cars is going to sell MORE games than "We have 500 cars". That's common sense.

Irrelevant, as news sources reported that 800 of the cars would be standard cars long before the release date of the game. You knew this before buying it. Regardless, the sales were not hampered by this. They didn't "trick" you like you kinda make it sound like they did.

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Read my first post in the thread and there's more in there, including things that I agree with you on.

I'd LOVE for the standard cars to be replaced by Premium cars. Of course, they've had six years to include them (yes I understand SDLC and understand that they didn't really have 6 years for that one part, but the game has been in development for an extremely long time, you'd think they'd get more than 200 done).

We are not code developers and game programmers. So, the complaint of how long it takes to make one game....isn't something I really weigh in on nor see as a negative, as we simply don't know what it takes to make a game like GT5. I have read a source though that said it would take an extra 3-5 yrs if they sat and modeled all 1000 cars before releasing the game. It's already been long enough of a wait imo.

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

Sorry, I haven't had time to play lately so it updated 1.03, I'm guessing it won't jump updates, and has to do them sequentially, so perhaps next time I try to run the game it'll be 1.04, then 1.05. So maybe 1.05 fixed the shader then? Better?

It will update to 1.04 and then have you update to 1.05....or it could possibly be rolled all into one update, I don't know exactly how it's going to work for those who haven't updated. It has come sequentially for me since I have been updating on the days that they were released.

In terms of shader/shadows....do not see this getting much better. The shadows again are "dynamic". I don't think with the PS3 that this will smooth itself out as much until PS4. Some write of the "dynamic" excuse, however someone mentioned they would like more smoke in drifting from Forza like it is in GT5. The reason why it's like that in GT5 IS because of being dynamic. So, it's not a feature you can just write off. There are parts they want to include within the game play that they can't because it would eat up the PS3's memory (Head tracking being in Arcade mode, but would kill memory in the career mode).

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

I must admit that I did not read the entire thread, so I'm not sure which FM3 points that you have made that no one has replied to. What are they? I'll likely agree since FM3 is *far* from perfect but maybe not.. :shrug:

It's a lot of points to go back through. Did you catch any of the videos I posted? You mentioned not being realistic. But that's what drives the GT series...realism. In console games, GT is the number #1 answer for which game is the most accurate and real representation of the Racing Genre.

Peep Video:

[Dragonitti]

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR

You can skip importing a car that you already have a Premium version of, or intend to have.

Sorry, still seems completely pointless to me. It's not a slam against the game itself, but that little bit of work put into converting a standard car when you intended/already had a premium car = time that could have been better spent adding another premium car, or another feature, etc, etc.

Same way I feel about the graphics and crap you can add in FM3, I wish that time would have been spent on something real instead of pointless crap... I guess I can almost see the point in the graphics, I'm sure someone out there loves that section of FM3.. I seriously doubt anyone loves the standard version of a S/P car over the premium.

To me, it's still just marketing. If I were in charge of the project all of the S/P cars would have just been P.. and there'd be no Daihatsu Midget II at all :P

You nor I know the process behind importing code and re-rendering it. Therefore I don't feel a need to give a reason behind it. I just know during an interview I read with Kaz that the cars that have both are ones that were during the development and conversion to Premium. Not all Premium cars have a Standard counter part, so again I don't know what all is involved and not going to make up an opinion on it.

I would be one to want to collect all the cars in the game regardless if it's something I don't desire to drive. I Have a Veyron in my car garage, I don't drive it regardless if it's premium or not. Thing is built to go straight and that's it. I still wanted it though just to have it....lol.

[Dragonitti]

Something I forgot to mention about the shadows. Shadows on standard cars suck. Shadows on premium are much smoother. I also notice that the Standard vs Premium thing also applies to certain elements in tracks. There are vids comparing the Trees in GT5 and Forza. Forza has 3D modeled trees and in GT5 there are tracks with flat 2D trees. However this does not apply to all the tracks in GT5. Take a look at Nurburgring. The trees are 3D. If there was one complaint I would have to say about GT5 it would be that it is not 100% done. I'm still happy to play it and think its leaps and bounds over Forza. Its amazing though that it score ls BIG and its not even fully completed. When it is 100%.....the critics will be speechless.

[Snaps]

Originally Posted by Dragonitti

So far you guys have only talked about Standard cars as being the negative. What will you say when they get phased out and more Premium cars show up in their place? I have thus far listed more than ONE particular feature I didn't like with Forza. All I keep seeing from the opposition in this debate is the raising of the "Standard Car" flag.

I will be laughing while playing Forza 4 as Polyphony is still updating their standard cars and while you still have an unfinished game...