Random Thoughts - Part Deux [NO POLITICS]

[spike021]

Speaking of computer science, or, more generally, working as a software engineer: fuck the interview situation in this industry. it's such bullcrap and it's a generally accepted problem that it's not well-optimized, but nobody has a better way to do it. so instead it's basically set up for elitists or people who are good at cramming to do well.

I'm not a saint either, but at least when I interview candidates at my current job, I know to ask better questions to get an idea of problem solving skill.

Take the interview I just had, for example.

In SDE interviews when you're given a coding question, it's good to ask clarifying questions at the beginning so you can get a good understanding of the problem, expected inputs and edge cases, and outputs for the code.

So the person interviewing me over the phone (with a shitty staticy phone connection) and using a live editor website asks her question, and then I start asking my clarifying questions only for her to go "sure, but we'll get to those questions later."

Then I spend the next 45 minutes-ish with an approximate solution that runs, but has one edge case it's not built to handle all because she never let me ask the clarifying questions that would've helped me factor that situation in.

[Sapphireho]

Something totally cool happened today. I was going out to run errands and there was a group of people walking by. It was a couple of the kids (and spouses) of the parents that built my house. They gave me lots of information about my house including original walls in my garage. They said their parents probably still have the original plans, and if so will bring them too me, and told me who the builder was. The builder is still here.

They say it is an exact duplicate of another house a couple miles away. They built 2 with these plans.

Cool.

[ScoobsMcGee]

Originally Posted by humfrz

Did you take ALL of your meds today?




humfrz

Fun story about that. About February of this year I went to the doctor due to some issues I was having. They put me on a prescription and an OTC drug, which had some side effects that I reacted poorly to. So they put me on another prescription and another OTC med for that, which caused more side effects. Another OTC med and 400mg of magnesium per day for that, and yet my back still hurt so badly I could barely walk. So they sent me to physical therapy.

About two months ago I got fed up taking 5 pills and two vitamins per day from just one multivitamin 6 months prior, and went to see another doctor. He looked at what I was taking, said "What the fuck, you're only 37," and worked me off everything. Replacing it with just one OTC med. I've been getting steadily better ever since.

Still really do like sleeping, though.

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by spike021

Speaking of computer science, or, more generally, working as a software engineer: fuck the interview situation in this industry. it's such bullcrap and it's a generally accepted problem that it's not well-optimized, but nobody has a better way to do it. so instead it's basically set up for elitists or people who are good at cramming to do well.

I'm not a saint either, but at least when I interview candidates at my current job, I know to ask better questions to get an idea of problem solving skill.

Take the interview I just had, for example.

In SDE interviews when you're given a coding question, it's good to ask clarifying questions at the beginning so you can get a good understanding of the problem, expected inputs and edge cases, and outputs for the code.

So the person interviewing me over the phone (with a shitty staticy phone connection) and using a live editor website asks her question, and then I start asking my clarifying questions only for her to go "sure, but we'll get to those questions later."

Then I spend the next 45 minutes-ish with an approximate solution that runs, but has one edge case it's not built to handle all because she never let me ask the clarifying questions that would've helped me factor that situation in.

So, you expect software people to have personal skills?

[ScoobsMcGee]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

Something totally cool happened today. I was going out to run errands and there was a group of people walking by. It was a couple of the kids (and spouses) of the parents that built my house. They gave me lots of information about my house including original walls in my garage. They said their parents probably still have the original plans, and if so will bring them too me, and told me who the builder was. The builder is still here.

They say it is an exact duplicate of another house a couple miles away. They built 2 with these plans.

Cool.

So you're saying your new house has an available parts car... er house?

[ScoobsMcGee]

Originally Posted by Spuds

So, you expect software people to have personal skills?

Originally Posted by ScoobsMcGee

So you're saying your new house has an available parts car... er house?

Damnit, man.

[spike021]

Originally Posted by Spuds

So, you expect software people to have personal skills?

I'd say it's 50/50. Once you've been in the industry some time and you're thought of as responsible enough to do an interview, then you should have adequate personal skills.

[cjd]

Originally Posted by spike021

I'd say it's 50/50. Once you've been in the industry some time and you're thought of as responsible enough to do an interview, then you should have adequate personal skills.

Live coding on a phone call? That's BS. I'm currently trying to make 'homework' useful and interesting. Basically set up so most applicants can't finish it, and that doesn't matter. Just fodder for conversation about questions, decisions, assumptions. Because no homework isn't allowed. Horrible process today, and it shows in the shitshow of the end product.

The really smart ubercoders make everything worse. They could actually fail by having no questions and being too sure of their answer. That's on purpose. But most people don't know I'm building that in.

We'll see if it has legs. And if it works.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by hpanju

Hoping to get my degree in Computer Science. Love coding and developing applications and games. It was really the only course in high school where I felt the homework wasn’t a chore.

Forgot to wish you good luck! Did you take your exam yet? Fingers crossed.

[spike021]

Originally Posted by cjd

Live coding on a phone call? That's BS. I'm currently trying to make 'homework' useful and interesting. Basically set up so most applicants can't finish it, and that doesn't matter. Just fodder for conversation about questions, decisions, assumptions. Because no homework isn't allowed. Horrible process today, and it shows in the shitshow of the end product.

The really smart ubercoders make everything worse. They could actually fail by having no questions and being too sure of their answer. That's on purpose. But most people don't know I'm building that in.

We'll see if it has legs. And if it works.

That sounds like a great idea! I do know a lot of people around here dislike take-home style challenges. I feel 50/50 about those too, but done the right way they're much better than someone just being on the phone watching you code via a screen.

I haven't handled the initial challenge for my team, usually I'm part of the on-site interview panel. But I try to take an (subjectively, I suppose) easy problem that really is very easy, and then once a candidate can finish it, I build in the complexity (what if this input is too large to store in memory, etc.) and have them refactor to meet different ends. Helps me see what their mindset is, if they will ask questions that might be useful later from the beginning.

I know a lot of people would say it's too easy a question. But IMO a lot of the time those same people think they're asking easy questions that candidates should be capable of solving, that are really actually quite difficult ones.

It's definitely a tough situation.

[hpanju]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Any mathematics that cannot be expressed using continuous functions is discrete math. So basically take all the math you learned in high school and set it aside.


Now consider all the other stuff.

This right here sums up my thoughts exactly. Just a few more curse words thrown in for pizzazz.

[hpanju]

Originally Posted by Ultramaroon

Forgot to wish you good luck! Did you take your exam yet? Fingers crossed.

Exams in about a week. Still got time to prepare but I also have Calculus, Chemistry and my Web Programming courses tonight study for as well. Really hoping to do well cause the dream is to one day work in San Fran. Job market in Toronto isn’t as great as I would like and the stories I hear of people working in Silicon Valley are awesome.

[hpanju]

Originally Posted by spike021

That sounds like a great idea! I do know a lot of people around here dislike take-home style challenges. I feel 50/50 about those too, but done the right way they're much better than someone just being on the phone watching you code via a screen.

I haven't handled the initial challenge for my team, usually I'm part of the on-site interview panel. But I try to take an (subjectively, I suppose) easy problem that really is very easy, and then once a candidate can finish it, I build in the complexity (what if this input is too large to store in memory, etc.) and have them refactor to meet different ends. Helps me see what their mindset is, if they will ask questions that might be useful later from the beginning.

I know a lot of people would say it's too easy a question. But IMO a lot of the time those same people think they're asking easy questions that candidates should be capable of solving, that are really actually quite difficult ones.

It's definitely a tough situation.

Considering you’re involved in the whole interview process for software engineers and jobs of that nature, got any tips? Things I should try and focus on as I’m going through university that’ll help me in the long run? Still in first year but I’ve already done major programming (mostly games) and always wonder what else I’ll need to do to be competitive

[spike021]

Originally Posted by hpanju

Considering you’re involved in the whole interview process for software engineers and jobs of that nature, got any tips? Things I should try and focus on as I’m going through university that’ll help me in the long run? Still in first year but I’ve already done major programming (mostly games) and always wonder what else I’ll need to do to be competitive

Sadly it's kind of a toss-up, as evidenced by my earlier comment complaining about the whole process.

It's very subjective based on the interviewer.

Usually I want the candidate to have a solid handle on the traditional data structures: arrays (bunch of kinds), some trees but not the super complex annoying self-balancing kinds, linked lists, stacks, queues, and my personal favorite: hash tables (naming is in different flavors depending on the language).

Algorithms themselves I don't expect interviewees to have memorized at all because I know I'm horrible at rote memorization. I try to provide a computer for basic doc searching if needed.

I'd say the biggest thing on top of those is being willing to question and talk through the problem. I understand being silent while working but try to speak up a bit now and then, even if you're struggling.

Note: I have a hard time with this too when interviewing but for me as the interviewer it's brownie points if you speak up; most other interviewers in the industry just hate awkward silences and they'll say "speaking up to explain your thought process is "important"", but in many cases they don't really care because you can explain as much as you want of what you're thinking, but if you're wrong they'll just mark you as wrong anyway regardless of if you spoke out loud.

Try to be personable if possible. Ask for help when needed, but hopefully not for the whole thing . And just be willing to learn! If you have less experience, then an appetite for asking questions to learn more is great.


The biggest thing I can recommend: join clubs and orgs where you'll get a chance to meet new people and have conversations. It's a plus if these have moments where you'll get to standup in front of a bunch of people and give a speech, even if it's impromptu. Something like a local "Toastmasters" group is a great start.

Hope that's helpful!