Handling Setup - Oversteer vs. Understeer

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by solidONE

I'm not looking for advice on how to ride from somebody that I suspect has very limited experience doing that very thing, motorcycling.

you're ignoring a valuable lesson from Mike in the fundamentals of worldly objects navigating time and space.

If all you took away is that "well, I did a-b-c before and now I do x-y-z and drive faster" then you weren't thinking deep enough. The issue wasn't you "driving the car like a motorcycle," it was you simply driving incorrectly. You had this idea in your head of what to do around a corner.. but it sounds to me like you're not really understanding the "why" of it.. because if you did you would self-analyze until you found the solution yourself. But it took a 3rd person to point out your mistakes.

be moar zen, yo

if there's one thing I've been learning over the years is that blaming the car is very easy, but blaming yourself is very hard precisely because you have nothing to cling to. Getting co-drivers and using data to run self analysis has been monumental in my personal advancement, and I know that there is more to know, so every time I'm out there I use it to try and improve some aspect of my driving.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Not even close, but like I said, I'm quite happy with the pace I'm at on my motorcycle. I'm not looking for advice on how to ride from somebody that I suspect has very limited experience doing that very thing, motorcycling. I'm quite happy with my late turn in and apexes where I have 0 issues with my front tire pushing when I enter corners at speed on my bike. Although that's besides the point. We're talking about driving this car on a track. And all I did was making a connection to some of my habits that carried over to my driving on the track, where I do have problem with it pushing into turns sometimes. See what I'm getting at?

Riding like Gary McCoy is probably not very good for your health, BTW...

Experience =/= wisdom, but wisdom can only be gained with experience. I'm absolutely sure you have more miles than me on two wheels, but I spend a lot more time reflecting and analyzing what I do than most, and I have the guidance of some extremely vetted riders with serious credentials. Someone fast on a bike will be fast in a car, and someone fast in a car will be fast on a bike.

Have you ever seen how F1 drivers do on a bike, or how MotoGP riders do in a Rally or F1 car? Even with minimal cross-discipline experience, they excel. The theory to going fast is identical, because the physics involved are identical. Kinetics, torques, and aerodynamics don't change because you go from two wheels to four, or vice versa.

FYI, a car will ALWAYS corner faster than a motorcycle. If you think otherwise, it only further reveals your lack of experience.

The driver/rider is always the ultimate limitation.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Lmao! I get what you are saying, but you are making the same assumption that I have no understanding of basic physics and how it applies to driving dynamics. I've never once blamed the machine for not reacting the way I intended. Anyone with internet access and know how to use Google can make things sound much more complicated than it needs to be. Now, if you've ridden a motorcycle (even if you haven't ever seen one up close )you'd know how different it is from driving, not to mention they behave differently to input base on how they function mechanically. 2 small tires and 400lbs is going to behave differently from a 4 big tires and 3000 lbs of car. You don't need a degree in physics to know this. "keep it simple stupid" applies here.

At the end of the day it's all done by 'feel.' how you react to any particular situation will be largely dictated by 'habit' or 'muscle memory' how you react and reaction time to stimulus(feedback of what your feeling the vehicle is doing). That, I think, is my issue. I've already have these poor habits before I've even had enough time to develop good ones. Also for me it's much easier to 'feel' what my bike is doing under me than my car.

... No man. You *think* you know more than you actually do. You've done the reading, and think you have a grasp of the concepts, but you are not breaking it down and really applying your basic knowledge at a core level.

Of course input is different on a bike from a car, but the input is strictly that, only input. You are using that input to get the *same* net effect: turn.

It is NOT all done by feel. I coach some GT Academy guys, and I 100% absolutely guarantee you that they do not drive by feel; they drive visually. They *see* minute changes that are the result of teh forces acting on them, via their vehicle. They can see when a car yaws a single degree, before I can even feel it, and are already correcting it before I've even mentioned it, but cannot, for the life of them, feel when a wheel is out of balance, of when a bushing is shot, or a damper is not behaving properly. They can tell me what the behavior is, and what they like/dislike, and can certainly correct/compensate for it, but they cannot feel it.

You really need to open up your mind and broaden your perspective, so that you can see the big picture. You're restricting yourself to only your own limited experiences, which lead you to draw conclusions which are viable within your set of knowledge/experience/circumstances, but are invalid when tested on a larger scale against a broader spectrum of data.

People thought the world was flat at one point, because within the limited knowledge they had, it made perfect sense.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Fast on bike does not mean you're automatically fast on car. I know plenty of guys that are fast, faster than than mike, who are not so fast on a bike. I also know guys whom are fast on motorcycle but are not fast in a car at all, but I know a few who are proficient at both.

Come out and ride with us, I've not riddeny bike in the canyon for a few years, but after driving the car on ACH, I want to start again. I don't claim to be 'fast' like you are, mike. I'd love to see how fast you are on 2 wheels mike. Maybe you can teache us a thing or 2

Your perception of "fast", and my perception of "fast" are completely different.

Sorry, but I don't squid in canyons on bikes; you can't go "fast" in a canyon without significant risk, at least what I consider fast.

How about we go ride at Laguna Seca, and compare lap times? I'll even tow your bike up for you. Last time I was there on a borrowed 250 I was a relative noob and was lapping 1:51 by the end of the day. My instructor told me the bike had at least another 3 seconds in it.

[AlexBinJackson]

I tend to agree with mike. I haven't been on a bike trackday in over a year but i do run 138-139 consistent (pretty Quick) at AAA Speedway and I have the back end slipping around quite a bit on my s1000rr. its pretty funny to watch the go pro videos because you just see the bazzaz traction light blinking the whole time when I'm mid corner and exiting

If you are fast on a bike you are definitely fast in a car and vise versa look at rossi and michael stomacher (testing for ducati)

Just my .02 cents

[MaximeT]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I can, and it's not drifting. Maintaining a small slip angle is the fastest possible state of cornering. Perhaps this video will better illustrate what is going on; the rear tire is not actually spinning. Note the actual path both the front and rear tires travel; it's exactly what I'm doing in the car, or a bike, or even a bicycle.

The theory and science behind turning is identical. You need to stop looking at turning as "turning the steering wheel" and see it as "controlling weight transfers and force vectors". Unfortunately, this will not make sense to someone who is not has the requisite skill level on either a bike OR a car, unless you have a strong grasp of basic (high school/first year college) Newtonian physics. Break everything down into the most basic step you can. To a novice, this will be "turning the steering wheel left turns the car left/leaning left turns the bike left". To someone with a basic level of mastery, this will be "turning the steering wheel left forces a weight shift to the right/ steering right forces leaning to the left". Going another (smaller) step beyond that introduces the torques: "turning the steering wheel left causes a perpendicular torque on the chassis, which causes a weight shift to the right, which makes the car turn left/steering right forces a perpendicular torque which results in the bike leaning left, which ultimately forces the car to turn left (the force acts upon the bike in a direction identical to starting with your left arm pointed straight up toward the sky, and lowering your arm downward toward the ground in a motion that has you pointing straight left when you're halfway down).".

I can continue breaking down what exactly is going on further, but you get the point. Think in force vectors.

I usually never read posts about driving technique as I find they are totally useless and of very low level 99% of the time. But this one is spot on.

[strat61caster]

Welp I bullshitted a novel about my new camber plates and how the car is setup from the factory vs how my car is currently setup and blah blah blah.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=12

I love talking about this stuff so feel free to call my bullshit or ask questions, just a n00b figuring this stuff out.

Originally Posted by 8R6

how come your driver-side rear wheel is half-degree off camber from the rest?

I'm at -1.0 degrees left rear and -1.4 degrees right rear, it's not abnormal, would have posted sooner but I wanted to be sure of my numbers.

[MaximeT]

Originally Posted by solidONE

Are these guys fucking computers? I cannot imagine, will all the forces applied to their bodies from driving that they do not 'feel' them. Even computers use sensors.



I've never been to Laguna Seca, unfortunately. 1:51 sounds pretty damn fast for a 250. Do you have video?

I have a massive SimRacing career behind me. I was the first LFS world champion back in 2004 and was in the iRacing top 50 a few years ago.

We use to feel the car with eyes and tires sound in game.

In SimRacing, you learn the track from going slower and slower into a turn, until it's the right speed.

In real life you have obviously to go the other way.

We feel most of the thing through the steering wheel and eyes and a lot less from the body.

In fact, the body just give us motion sickness :o

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by MaximeT

I have a massive SimRacing career behind me. I was the first LFS world champion back in 2004 and was in the iRacing top 50 a few years ago.

We use to feel the car with eyes and tires sound in game.

In SimRacing, you learn the track from going slower and slower into a turn, until it's the right speed.

In real life you have obviously to go the other way.

We feel most of the thing through the steering wheel and eyes and a lot less from the body.

In fact, the body just give us motion sickness :o

Reminds me of http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/02/i...-road-atlanta/

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Reminds me of http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/02/i...-road-atlanta/

Greger Huttu?

Great article, very one of a kind experience.

[MaximeT]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Reminds me of http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/02/i...-road-atlanta/

He is the best driver in the world. Better than Alonso and Hamilton. The only one that come close is V.Rossi.
There's no 4 wheel equivalent.

He can drive at the limit of 4 tires at the same time 24/7 in all corners. He was top 1 when I was top 50 ( with 12000 guys behind us at the time)

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by AlexBinJackson

If you are fast on a bike you are definitely fast in a car and vise versa look at rossi and michael stomacher (testing for ducati)

Just my .02 cents

This.

There is a reason when I went from bikes to Miata's within a weekend and two coaching sessions from Kristen Treager, I was in a 1.6 open diff Miata on R888s and within about 6% delta of the SM guys on Hoosiers at my local track.

But I'm an 85-90% guy, I'm faster than most, but can't catch THE guys.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by solidONE

@CSG Mike, are you down for a 24 hour endurance race? On a 100cc motard and kart track. I got a buddy putting together a team for september. I wasn't going to join, but... I'd like to see you in action on 2 wheels.

Sorry, but not interested in the same reason I have no interest in LeMons... too many unpredictable, inexperienced people on track.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by solidONE

I have exact same lop sided camber as yours in the rear. What is your build date?

12/12