BRZ Owner At York University

[JERM^]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

I don't know about you, but my undergrad was during night time hours and spread out over a longer period by taking less than 100% course load. I had a day-time job and lived with parents. Made my undergrad was a breeze.

But many people don't quite have the same luxury.


also, studying in an undergraduate program IS NOT the same as working for your PHD and being required to be a TA. Their research work is for the betterment of mankind and effective results lead to a better image for the University.

The university, in turn, is saying that they don't really care that ya'll do a great job, we're still going to pay you the same money you could be making as a bank teller, while they collect mad stacks of cash from the ever increasing student populations and the associated subsidies.

I have no family in this country, rented my own cave, took engineering courses where you are not allowed to spread over too long because after 2nd year nobody else in the school except your faculty will be taking any of your courses so there isn't a summer school or night school either. starting 3rd year was 6 courses a semester, 38 to 42 hours a week. So it wasn't easy. About the statement of the society not paying enough to academics and scientists, I'm work you 100% but since capitalism is the ultimate form of politics right now, anything done that doesn't generate capital will not be appreciated. Messed up I know but in capitalism, it simply doesn't mean if you chose to be a PhD/researcher you are making a bigger contribution to society than a steel fabricator.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

My point was that pure research at an educational institution level is not a great way to try to make a living and it never has been, ever!

well, that's not entirely true, some people make great careers from pursuing the sciences or being employed as tenured professors.


but that's more to the point, you're perfectly fine with "academia" being some blur in the distance, that if you're not a "doctor, lawyer, or investor" then you should "start your own business."


and that sort of mentality is not something agree with.

[Canehda]

That is just a single example of a field but I think it represents more than just life science.
Personally I have given up any want to pursue my field in any post graduate program because Ive realized that simply getting CHRP designation will give me a better job out look than a masters in neurobiochemistry which I was aiming for.
Its really just sad to see how the people that advance our society like physicists, chemists, etc essentially live like Monks so that some business corporation can sweep in, and use them to make disgusting amounts of money.

[Heero]

Originally Posted by Canehda

But how come we have people who worked their ass off for four years getting a life science degree, getting paid minimum wage to work in a nursing home. What kind of motivation is that for people to get into that field? Life sciences (Biology, Physics and Chemistry) are arguably one of the hardest undergraduate programs in terms of course load, I would only compare it to engineering in terms of difficulty. And yet people who fail to become a doctor with a biology degree are left pretty much exclusively with jobs that pay less than 50k a year which in a city like toronto is not much... Personally I decided that being a doctor and the clinic environment in general was not for me and what I was left with for job prospects was pretty depressing.

You should never pursue an education with the expectation of making a certain income or getting into a certain field.

According to your line of thinking, anyone taking a bsc is entitled to an above average salary. That is the same thinking that teachers and their unions have, which is totally wrong.

Just because you have a "more difficult" education, does not mean you should be making more than other people automatically.

Thats just not how the job market works.

Originally Posted by Canehda

That is just a single example of a field but I think it represents more than just life science.
Personally I have given up any want to pursue my field in any post graduate program because Ive realized that simply getting CHRP designation will give me a better job out look than a masters in neurobiochemistry which I was aiming for.
Its really just sad to see how the people that advance our society like physicists, chemists, etc essentially live like Monks so that some business corporation can sweep in, and use them to make disgusting amounts of money.

If you are pursuing higher levels of academia because you want to be rewarded monetarily, you are probably in the wrong field.

I'm starting law school in September. Not because I want to be a corporate lawyer making oodles of cash, but because I am interested in helping people.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by JERM^

About the statement of the society not paying enough to academics and scientists, I'm work you 100% but since capitalism is the ultimate form of politics right now, anything done that doesn't generate capital will not be appreciated.

and um.. this is why people strike and revolt


but ya'll been pacified into inactivity. You worked hard for your life and now you refuse to allow others to fight for a world where they don't have to.


we're so complacent as a society that a few picketers blocking fucking sentinel road make people rage so hard that they get out of their cars to cause a physical altercation.


They're using their energy on the wrong thing!

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

well, that's not entirely true, some people make great careers from pursuing the sciences or being employed as tenured professors.

That's true, and I would expect a professor or research scientist to make a living wage. I would not expect someone who has a part time job while they're finishing school to make a living wage purely from the one part time job, no matter where the paycheck comes from.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Heero

You should never pursue an education with the expectation of making a certain income or getting into a certain field.

According to your line of thinking, anyone taking a bsc is entitled to an above average salary. That is the same thinking that teachers and their unions have, which is totally wrong.

Just because you have a "more difficult" education, does not mean you should be making more than other people automatically.

Thats just not how the job market works.

and that's the real problem... the job market is not being adhered to. Universities offer the courses, advertising success. No one is administering course selection based on the demographics.


A university will gladly take you in and put you in a compsci course, they wont' tell you that you're not going to get a job. ....... but they SHOULD. Universities should have entire departments dedicated to moving people along in life, but they don't, they accept anyone waving dollar bills at them and then leave them out on their own


IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY


repeat after me

IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY




Maybe if universities started increasing their average GPA requirements for people to get in, so that having a degree actually meant something, then the dream could match reality.


but they're all to blame at the heart of this, because everyone in the system is motivated by MONEY and not social development.

[Heero]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

Maybe if universities started increasing their average GPA requirements for people to get in, so that having a degree actually meant something, then the dream could match reality.


but they're all to blame at the heart of this, because everyone in the system is motivated by MONEY and not social development.

Don't blame Universities.

Blame the gullible people who believe that getting a science degree entitles them to a job or a salary.

Universities don't promise jobs. They promise an education.

EDIT:

Universities are making education more widely available.

At the end of the day, it isn't a bad thing that a janitor has a Bachelor of science, if in the last century that same janitor would not have had any education.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Heero

If you are pursuing higher levels of academia because you want to be rewarded monetarily, you are probably in the wrong field.

I'm very sad to hear people who express this position, you have been conditioned to support the system currently in place, and at no time will you be a resistance to the corporate world.

Originally Posted by Heero

I'm starting law school in September. Not because I want to be a corporate lawyer making oodles of cash, but because I am interested in helping people.

you should be commended for going into the legal field (which is important) on humanitarian merit, but you ALSO HAPPEN to go into a field which society rewards at a ridiculous level (although many of one's fees are high just to cover the fees they have to pay just to be a lawyer, but that's a different issue)


let me ask you this, would you continue to practice law if tomorrow the government mandated that no lawyer may charge more than $40 for their services? Will you continue to put in the hard work and help people out of the goodness of your heart?

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Heero

Don't blame Universities.

Blame the gullible people who believe that getting a science degree entitles them to a job or a salary.

Universities don't promise jobs. They promise an education.

and education to "get a job" , you should ride the TTC and read all the college posters, hilarious


as for the gullible people, I guess you feel the housing market collapse in the states is entirely the people's fault too, amright?.

[Canehda]

Originally Posted by Heero

You should never pursue an education with the expectation of making a certain income or getting into a certain field.

According to your line of thinking, anyone taking a bsc is entitled to an above average salary. That is the same thinking that teachers and their unions have, which is totally wrong.

Just because you have a "more difficult" education, does not mean you should be making more than other people automatically.

Thats just not how the job market works.



If you are pursuing higher levels of academia because you want to be rewarded monetarily, you are probably in the wrong field.

I'm starting law school in September. Not because I want to be a corporate lawyer making oodles of cash, but because I am interested in helping people.

I just want to clarify that I'm not trying to pull the "my major is better than your's" thing, I'm just using it as an example because that is all i have experience with!

Although I do want to enjoy my career, there comes a point where you need to ask yourself whether it is smart to risk unemployment and a potential lower standard of life in the pursuit of something you kind of enjoy. Why should there be this compromise?

EDIT:
I too attended university because I wanted to help people, I wanted to be that guy that cures cancer or the one who cures AIDS because I thought if I worked hard enough I could accomplish this. Well just look at the scientists who worked their asses off to create advances in Cancer treatments using comparative physiology just to have their studies halted and left unemployed because they received no grant or funding for further testing.

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Heero

EDIT:
Universities are making education more widely available.

At the end of the day, it isn't a bad thing that a janitor has a Bachelor of science, if in the last century that same janitor would not have had any education.

pfff


50% of York's student body shouldn't even be there. I spent 10 years there, most of my classmates were quite frankly, fucking retards. Most students there refuse to put in the hard work, they refuse to study, they refuse to use their brains, but someone fucking let them, and they did it all for the nookie..

if the university is going to be filling their coffers at the expense of the gullible idiots, then they should at the very least have the decency to pay the actual academics. (without whom, by the way, the universities wouldn't even be in operation)

[JERM^]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

and um.. this is why people strike and revolt


but ya'll been pacified into inactivity. You worked hard for your life and now you refuse to allow others to fight for a world where they don't have to.


we're so complacent as a society that a few picketers blocking fucking sentinel road make people rage so hard that they get out of their cars to cause a physical altercation.


They're using their energy on the wrong thing!

I actually think we actually agree on the same thing but we are treating it differently. Where you think we could make changes happen is where I think it will never change. The reason why mainstream politics lean towards democracy and capitalism is because it puts humanism at top priority, and the society only grows with the rules of free market economy where if you have something that others want, you earn more money to buy more things. Sadly, this doesn't work in favor of academia where immediate returns don't usually happen. Scientists have been poor for a long time in history now but people who use their research are getting rich. In late communist China (and no China is not communist now, but that's another topic) everyone made a preset amount of money based on the job they did and the rate is fixed nation wide because everyone works for the government and "government now promotes the research of nuclear weapons so people are encouraged to become scientists and not carpenters". Is that the way you actually want then? I can't imagine you saying yes. If someone needs to pay out of their pocket to fund a research in a free market society, they want an investment that has a return. How can we possibly break this cycle in a large scale? Call me pessimistic, but I really don't see it happening...

[Heero]

Originally Posted by wparsons

Forgetting the annual salary, what is the hourly wage for a typical TA?

Annual salary shouldn't even come up in the discussions since it's not a full time job.

According to York university, 52-62$ an hour.