Why I like Mazda engineers

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

So that's roughly a bit over 2 million rotaries sold by Mazda.

Toyota sold 2.2 million Camrys, just in the USA in JUST the last 5 years and Ford sold 3.1 Million F150s just in the US in that same time frame.

2 Million rotaries sold in the entirety of the Mazda Corp, globally, is the definition of a drop in the bucket.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by themadscientist

Economically viable, not at all. The rotary will always be an "also ran" design, same with the turbine engine. That's ok, though. There's something out there for everybody.

Except turbines are super successful in aircraft and power generation, and extremely reliable. They're just bad for cars for obvious reasons. Poor response, poor low load efficiency.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

The number of people at Mazda that are affected by poor business decisions and constant pursuit of chasing a tech that didn't fit in a changed world: 100% (aka, the majority).

Mazda damn near didn't exist today. They were teetering on the brink not too long ago. The rotary isn't solely at fault but it was a big loss for a long time and it is my opinion that it took them too long to let go. If the rotary is the right answer to this ICE-supported electric car from an engineering standing point then run with it. But if there's a better option that they table so that they can play with their rotors again, just because, then that would be a terrible business decision.

Sheesh such violent hatred for a project that millions of people have enjoyed. It's not like their whole lineup has sucked, for several years the ONLY Mazda worth having was an RX (can you honestly name another Mazda vehicle produced in 1983 you would or even could enjoy today?)

By your own admittance the rotary is not the sole source of their woes, they're still struggling with reliability on their CUV's and some of their most unreliable cars have been piston engined.

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/lon...89939/+pgeorge

The only way Mazda will get my cash in their pockets is if they offer a rotary again, consequences be damned, me me me me me me. I'll happily buy a used Mazda piston engine in a car that's reliable (Mazda3, Miata) but only something truly exceptional and interesting will see me buying a new vehicle again.

Sure, they could chase Camry sales figures, how's that working out for VAG?
Their Camry challenger has received every accolade in it's class and yet the Mazda6 sales are flagging.

Good business men don't charge a fortified hill, see Subaru. Nobody cared about AWD until they threw their advertising dollars into it. Mazda needs to embody zoom zoom, Mazda needs a rotary.

[DohcTor]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

LOL at how wrong this post is. And another LOL on how butthurt someone got when a rotary was compared to communism.

That's super funny stuff right there.

If we're going to compare an engine design to an economic philosophy I'd say the Rotary more closely reflects the outcome of Trickle Down. It was adopted in the 80's, didn't work the way it was promised, only benefited a tiny minority at the loss of the majority but yet a certain group of people keep pushing the agenda in the face of overwhelming evidence to its contrary.

Sounds a lot like a reality of the rotary to me.


Please Mazda, let the affair die.. She's an abusive girlfriend and she's no good for you, she never will be.. Just let her go man.. just let her go.

NAILED IT! Let the butthurt Obama hater start flowing in

[themadscientist]

[ZDan]

I had a '90 FC. Great car, I loved it! Perfectly maintained, but it blew apex seals at 105k miles (suprising NO one in the rotary community). It also never got better than 22mpg on the highway and averaged ~18 over my ~85%/15% hwy/city commute.

I still think the rotary is very cool, and it would be neat for Mazda to bring it back, but it would be a dumb move. I would rather they developed a compact high-revving ~2.5 liter V4 and built a serious and fast lightweight sports car (MX-7?) around that instead of rehashing the inherently inefficient and problematic rotary.

[wbradley]

I drove an 89 RX7 for months when I was in the car business in 89. Abysmally mileage. Nissan 240SX was a way better value for that time and had a better engine.

Rotary engines sold as a novelty for Mazda but due to missions and long term fuel prices it is no longer viable.

If you want Mazda to go broke again, convince them to bring back the rotary.

[themadscientist]

I don't see how they could bring it back. The rapacious fuel consumption is hard to eliminate, maybe DI could help? Until that is solved, the other thing that results, crappy emissions, is another no-go in this green nazi world. I still have two 13Bs left over. I think I'll overhaul one with NA rotors and use it to drive a generator and compressor for my shop. Steady rpm is great for these engines and I could drive a pretty beefy generator motor and compressor head off the flywheel.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Sheesh such violent hatred for a project that millions of people have enjoyed.

-Not violent hatred at all, I like different and weird technologies. It's just akin to seeing someone in an abusive relationship, someone smart who should know better but keeps going back for that ass whoopin' time and time again. Mazda, the rotary doesn't love you, no matter how much the fanbois love it.

-Because ~2 million have been sold you can technically say "millions have enjoyed" but millions have also enjoyed smoking crack, healing with leeches and burning witches but yet we're not here extolling the virtues of those actions. Just because millions have enjoyed something does not a valid argument make. Just thought I'd point that out.

-The Rotary isn't something I hate, it's just obsolete. It's not a workable solution for a traditional ICE propelled car in today's regulatory environment and the number of fanbois it has is far-overshadowed by how many people are turned off by it, either because they're unfamiliar (fear of unknown) or they are familiar but don't appreciate its shortcomings. It's a round world and the rotary is a square peg. It boggles my mind how this concept doesn't register.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

By your own admittance the rotary is not the sole source of their woes, they're still struggling with reliability on their CUV's and some of their most unreliable cars have been piston engined.

Most of that is during the FORD years. Mazda wasn't free from that partnership until 2010 and it's clear that's when things starting to turn. This new KODO design has been a whopping success and 2014 was Mazda's best year in over 20 years:
http://www.mazdausamedia.com/2015-01...ES-IN-20-YEARS

Also most of the articles on Jalop that cover new Mazdas are overwhelmingly positive.

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Their Camry challenger has received every accolade in it's class and yet the Mazda6 sales are flagging.

A big part is name recognition. Just like how people bought the Z3 only because it had a BMW badge on it. Or someone buys a Honda because they "just needed a reliable car and they were told..." Under the rule of the FORD they put out some real turds and the Mazda brand suffered as a result. With the moves they're making now that will change and I think it's changing pretty fast. I think the CX-3 will be a big hit as well.

For every 1 person that's horny for a rotary I can find that 10 that are turned off by it. For a company that's rebounding and rebuilding their brand image, they would be wise to ignore the rotary for production vehicles, unless that production vehicle is an EV with a rotary charger (if that's a good solution).

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Mazda needs to embody zoom zoom, Mazda needs a rotary.

Sorry dude, it looks like if you ever see a rotary in a production vehicle again it will simply be there to charge your batteries.

Now, does that charge your batteries?

[Poodles]

Wankels (they're not rotaries dammit...) are interesting, but so are Sterling engines and other obscure engine designs.

The thing people need to get through their heads is that it's operation is like a basic 2-stroke motor in lawn equipment and not a 4-stroke.






- Dry crankcase means premixed oil / Non-reciprocating operation means oil has to be injected or premixed.


- "Valves" are opened by the movement of the main assembly / Ditto


-Etc.


The real shortcoming has always been the issue of the spark plug causing loss of compression. That could be countered with other ways of ignition that allow the wall to stay smooth (laser), but I've seen someone mention a multiple apex seal (though it's still going to leak some, just not as much).


I'd like to see Mazda flush with cash like they were when the Cosmo first came out and really pour into developing the engine with new ideas. I doubt that will happen though.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

-Not violent hatred at all, I like different and weird technologies. It's just akin to seeing someone in an abusive relationship, someone smart who should know better but keeps going back for that ass whoopin' time and time again. Mazda, the rotary doesn't love you, no matter how much the fanbois love it.

Now, does that charge your batteries?

All a matter of perspective innit?

I'd argue that the rotary has been good to Mazda but we might as well be flinging feces at each others cages at this point.





Hope you find it in your heart to support a pistoned Mazda, they certainly need and deserve it.

[themadscientist]

Mazda established themselves in the American market with rotaries. The RX series has sold well for what it is, but it's just past the time to base a product line on spinny triangle engines. Mazda is making the right moves to stay profitable and that's fine. If they go under then that's a worse problem; no more Roadster! As long as a few sick fucks spend their lunch breaks screwing around with the rotary that's something. They sure spit this little 330cc one rotor out of nowhere. Obviously somebody is still playing with them over there.

[Allch Chcar]

The Renesis, specifically the bi-fuel hydrogen Renesis, was the last Mazda "Wankel Rotary engine." This has been repeated by Mazda's public relations for several years now. Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional at this point in time.

Despite the horror stories I still considered a RX8 versus buying a twin until I settled on something completely different (at least for now). I still haven't driven a RX8 or RX7. I have never been impressed by the engineering on Mazda's Rotaries, now the chassis on the otherhand...

[themadscientist]

The RX8 was just too damned ugly to consider. It could have had a turbo engine engine in it and i still wouldn't have bought one.