Manual tranny takes another step into oblivion

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

That wasn't directed squarely at you, per se -- more towards the disparaging attitude that a number of car guys have about AT's and the general disdain for anyone who dares imagine a sports car as actually being a proper sports car with fewer than three pedals to operate.

The self-indulgent fantasy was regarding the future survival of MT's. They will gradually vanish, as with all other old tech. If better AT tech doesn't kill it, then electric cars, which will require 1 or 2 speeds at most, will.

It's not so much the manual for manual's sake. But the attitude. People don't take driving seriously anymore. The automatic is somewhat responsible for that and the appliance attitude. If getting your license was more difficult, rather than a token test because everybody 'needs' to be able to drive, people would take it more seriously.

And a manual transmission would make an effective training filter.

[Mitch]

Even when manual is the most expensive, least efficient way of changing gears, I will still use three pedals. But maybe that's just me.

[Jordo!]

Originally Posted by Dimman

It's not so much the manual for manual's sake. But the attitude. People don't take driving seriously anymore. The automatic is somewhat responsible for that and the appliance attitude. If getting your license was more difficult, rather than a token test because everybody 'needs' to be able to drive, people would take it more seriously.

And a manual transmission would make an effective training filter.

There's absolutely no reason to assume that.

People who only drive MT's also somehow manage to cause accidents as well, despite their cyborg-like connection with the operation of their car

Actually... we could turn this around and argue that focusing more on steering and braking and less on gear juggling is actually preferable for safer driving.

You've never talked on the cell phone while driving? If no, is this because you cannot, given that all of your attention is on the motor and trans, or because you choose not to?

And a car IS an appliance. Does everyone in Europe take driving more seriously? This is just disdain for AT's and the people who drive them... there's absolutely no reason to assume any of that.

Maybe cars shouldn't have stereos in them either? You could wreck the car fiddling with the buttons instead of driving. And cup holders? Forget it -- you are one cup of coffee away from running into a tree

Originally Posted by Mitch

Even when manual is the most expensive, least efficient way of changing gears, I will still use three pedals. But maybe that's just me.

It's not "just" you, but it is a specific segment of the population.

A lotta guys hate fuel injection too. For them, a "proper" car has a carburetor. And a V8. And goes fast with lots tire smoke. This 4-seater Miata Toyota and Subaru built wouldn't even register on their radar as something to drive or work on.

It's all about perspective...

[SLeRoux92]

Originally Posted by madfast

IS250? you base your opinion on that crappy AT programming? do yourself a favor and drive an IS-F before you come to a conclusion that AT cant be done well...

I'd say it's a good car for general comparison, I mean we're not exactly talking about driving gt-r's here. Or even better, Aventadors.

Anyways, I'm manual through thick and thin, no "shiftable autos" are worth it IMO.

Long hair; don't care

Anyways, these debates have always been pointless and I'm done wasting my time with them...people only end up getting butt hurt because someone else has an opinion.

[Jordo!]

Again, the "cranky" response is to bash autos because:

(1) They are not part of their concept of a sports car, and therefore they do not belong in sports cars -- it's an outrage to even imagine that they might.

(2) They are overly focused on the blatant limitations of older, poorly geared AT's that didn't have a solid connection with the motor (i.e., fluid coupling via torque converters) and wasted gobs of power.

(3) They often totally disregard the capability of new AT's that allow "manual" (in quotes out of respect) operation of gear shifts via paddles (i.e., rant about "poor shift logic" or being in the wrong gear -- irrelevant to modern sporty AT's)

(4) Appear to place an inordinate amount of personal worth into how well they operate a clutch pedal -- what if the opportunity to express this ability is somehow compromised thanks to lazy, text message sending subhumans who can't drive and want to ruin proper cars for the rest of us talented and serious automotive enthusiasts? Infuriating, I know!

Seriously, everyone needs to chill.

I wonder how many of the cranks would NEVER own a GT-R or a LFA -- those are NOT proper sports cars, with their silly flappy paddle gear boxes and PS3-like controls. What a joke!

Actually, I have a very good buddy who said if he owned a GT-R he'd put a 6-speed MT in it.

Then he drove one and seemed not to mind too much, just like most other folks who test drive one. He had fun too. Huh. Go figure.

Okay. End rant

[old greg]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Actually... we could turn this around and argue that focusing more on steering and braking and less on gear juggling is actually preferable for safer driving.

I can only speak for myself, but shifting doesn't require focus, it's second nature. It's about as mentally strenuous as figuring out how far to move my foot to go from the accelerator to the brake pedal.

Originally Posted by Jordo!

You've never talked on the cell phone while driving? If no, is this because you cannot, given that all of your attention is on the motor and trans, or because you choose not to?

No, it's because I only have two hands. It's pretty difficult to shift into second in the middle of a left hand turn while holding a phone.

[devinclfalcons]

Formula 1 cars use Paddle Shifters and those are the pinnacle of "racing"... Nuff Said

[Jordo!]

It's called a shoulder. Phones can be held there between head and chin. Even cell phones. What about when you are traveling in a straight line with no stopping, like on a highway? Once up to cruising speed, not much shifting to do, huh?

Seriously... now.

How about the radio? Do you find a way to use that while both hands are occupied.

Actually, both hands are always supposed to be devoted primarily to the STEERING WHEEL.

Whatever -- carry on being cranky, gentlemen.

[old greg]

Originally Posted by Jordo!

It's called a shoulder. Phones can be held there between head and chin. Even cell phones.

Speak for yourself. I can barely do that with my home phone, much less my tiny cell phone.

Originally Posted by Jordo!

What about when you are traveling in a straight line with no stopping, like on a highway? Once up to cruising speed, not much shifting to do, huh?

At that point it's no longer a conversation about transmissions.

Originally Posted by Jordo!

How about the radio? Do you find a way to use that while both hands are occupied.

I haven't listened to the radio in ~5 years, iPod on shuffle ftw.

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Whatever -- carry on being cranky, gentlemen.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[Infernal]

It's not the fact that you have one hand off the wheel that causes accidents, its that your attention is on something other than driving:
if you are speaking to your boss about a problem at work that they need your help with, then you will likely have a slower reaction time to kids running out in the street or a car door opening in front of you


also, if you had a phone inbetween your ear and shoulder, you would probably be concentrating on not dropping it in the event of having to manouvre away from hazards - reducing the speed in which you could turn the wheel

[madfast]

Originally Posted by Dimman

It's not so much the manual for manual's sake. But the attitude. People don't take driving seriously anymore. The automatic is somewhat responsible for that and the appliance attitude. If getting your license was more difficult, rather than a token test because everybody 'needs' to be able to drive, people would take it more seriously.

And a manual transmission would make an effective training filter.

do you have any study that corroborates this theory? by your logic, the US should have a much higher accident rate vs europe. is that actually the case?

Originally Posted by old greg

At that point it's no longer a conversation about transmissions.

it never was. people are somehow convinced that because you have slightly more to do while driving MT, that all of a sudden people will concentrate 100% of the time. and conversely if you have less to do, your concentration will undoubtedly wander... what a crock of shit.... it has always been about the DRIVER, not the machine...

[old greg]

Originally Posted by madfast

do you have any study that corroborates this theory? by your logic, the US should have a much higher accident rate vs europe. is that actually the case?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

The US is noticeably worse than Western Europe, but quite a bit better than Eastern Europe.

[borge12]

And with the average being 20.8 deaths / 100,000 people, and the US at 12.3 deaths /100,000, I think we can safely say that correlation does not imply causation.

[madfast]

Originally Posted by old greg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

The US is noticeably worse than Western Europe, but quite a bit better than Eastern Europe.

and eastern europeans drive AT? nope. their MT usage is way more than western europe and north america. this is further evidence that those numbers dont correlate with AT or MT usage. rather it just shows WE > NA > EE. im looking for a study that specifically tries to correlate better/safer driving with MT.