Entry Level?

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Well, the 914 shared many parts with VW including the engine. Some never considered it a "real" Porsche, although it had a Porsche badge. A few people were even calling it a VW-Porsche.

914s did not come with a Porsche crest on the hood. The family didn't allow it.
The 914 was a joint venture between VW and Porsche intended to replace the Karmann Ghia as the VW sports car. It was sold as the VW-Porsche in Europe. They didn't sell well because people didn't see it as a better VW, but a lesser Porsche.

So, they took off the VW/Porsche badges, and sold most of them in the US as Porsche. They new image conscious Americans would buy them.

[Sapphireho]

BTW, I don't feel entry level when I drive my twin.

[WildCard600]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

Well, the 914 shared many parts with VW including the engine. Some never considered it a "real" Porsche, although it had a Porsche badge. A few people were even calling it a VW-Porsche. The 924 is a better example with a different engine and a base price of $9,395 back in '76. This is around $42,800 in today's price which is much cheaper to a base Cayman that costs $59,900. Same prices hold for Europe for 924 and Cayman. A $42,800 price is certainly not cheap, but it was the budget friendly car that Porsche doesn't have today. In fact the player nowadays in this price range is the BRZ and they know it. At least in Europe. I think in US you don't pay so much for a 86/BRZ, but you have also the advantage of the local Subaru factory that can amortize somehow any import taxes etc.

I have no doubt that Porsche could produce a "compromise" car that could compete in the ~$40,000 market if they wanted to. Makes no sense for them do do so however since their brand identity is firmly based in the "premium" automotive tier.

Plus the fact that Porsche elitists routinely view the Cayman already as that "compromise car" and "not a real Porsche".

[Spuds]

Originally Posted by WildCard600

I have no doubt that Porsche could produce a "compromise" car that could compete in the ~$40,000 market if they wanted to. Makes no sense for them do do so however since their brand identity is firmly based in the "premium" automotive tier.

Plus the fact that Porsche elitists routinely view the Cayman already as that "compromise car" and "not a real Porsche".

Well, the Boxster was a ~$40k-50k car in like 2005...

Edit: Looks like you could still get a base model under $50k in 2010ish.

[WildCard600]

Originally Posted by Spuds

Well, the Boxster was a ~$40k-50k car in like 2005...

Edit: Looks like you could still get a base model under $50k in 2010ish.

But dat inflation tho.... $49k in 2010 adjusted to today is $58,591.

That should make everyone feel great about those "awesome" interest rates offered on traditional savings accounts.

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by WildCard600

I have no doubt that Porsche could produce a "compromise" car that could compete in the ~$40,000 market if they wanted to. Makes no sense for them do do so however since their brand identity is firmly based in the "premium" automotive tier.

Plus the fact that Porsche elitists routinely view the Cayman already as that "compromise car" and "not a real Porsche".

This raises an interesting question. Do folks think Porsche COULD (not would, but could) make a car as good as the BRZ for the price of a BRZ?

[Sapphireho]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

This raises an interesting question. Do folks think Porsche COULD (not would, but could) make a car as good as the BRZ for the price of a BRZ?

Any company could, if they wanted to make stupid small profits, or felt like making a loss.

I'm sure both Subaru and Toyota make little on the twins. I'm surprised they still make them.

[Ernest72]

Making a cheaper Porsche makes no sense for the brand. Thats why other cars manufacturers have to do it. I mean a BRZ is 80% Porsche at 20% cost. Unfortunately there is no money to be made in this segment at low prices.

[AnalogMan]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

This raises an interesting question. Do folks think Porsche COULD (not would, but could) make a car as good as the BRZ for the price of a BRZ?

They could, but they won't. Not anymore.

For many years Porsche's motto was 'Excellence is expected'. Then when Wendelin Wiedeking became CEO in 1993, he changed Porsche's mission to "To be the most profitable car company in the world". He was the one who spearheaded Porsche's massive cost (and quality) cutting campaign, phased out the air-cooled cars and switched over the lineup to water-cooled. Part of it was driven by the need to meet increasingly stringent emissions standards, but mostly it was to increase profits.

The old air-cooled Porsche 911 was massively over-engineered. It needed regular and complex maintenance, but would last almost forever with proper care. It was built like the proverbial bank vault.

The water cooled models that came afterwards, not so much. Porsches have been stung with many quality control problems ever since the Boxster and water-cooled 911 came out in 1999, including major engine issues (IMS, RMS, porous blocks, scored cylinder walls, just google any of those for eye-opening reads, especially the IMS). Porsche methodically designed the new cars to be built only as good as they minimally needed to be to sell, and no better.

Porsche succeeded in their quest to become the most profitable car company in the world. One look at the options list for any car is testimony to that. You can literally more than double the price of one of their cars with options. They decided long ago there was more money to be made in selling fewer cars at much higher prices to rich people than they could make in volume selling more cars at lower prices (and profit margins). Porsche has said several times that the entry level Porsche is a used one (for anyone brave enough to take on the IMS risk).

Of course Porsches remain fun to drive (at least the Boxster, Cayman, and 911), though I suspect many buyers these days buy them for the image and not performance (which is why so many of even their sports cars now have automatic transmissions). But it comes at a nose-bleed high price, both to buy and in maintenance and repair costs.

Bottom line, they probably could build a BRZ level car, but won't. There's less profit in that then selling fewer six-figure cars. And I also suspect they've long ago lost the knowledge of how to build a quality inexpensive car. The people who designed the 914 were very different than the engineers and accountants who work there today. So even if they decided they were willing to make less money on a cheaper car, I doubt they have the internal expertise to do that anymore.

Sic transit gloria Porsche.

[JesseG]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

@Flarpswitch I think you're reading too much into the term entry level.

Bottom line, it is an entry level vehicle into sports cars, because entry level simply means the least expensive way to get into a certain thing.

Porsche, Lambo, Ferrari all have "entry level" models into their world.

In the end, who gives a flip is someone thinks you have an "entry level" car? All that matters is you're happy with it. Look I could afford a much more expensive car and looked at more expensive ones when I bought the FR-S. However, it met the criteria I had at the time so I was perfectly happy with it. Still am 170,000+ miles later.

Is it entry level, yes. Do I care, no.

Once again, Dadhawk sums everything up very nicely.

I like the way you explained what “entry level” can mean. It’s not necessarily a derogatory statement. I do however have issues with auto journalists saying it’s a car for young kids with no money. They couldn’t be further from the truth. Yes of course it draws younger people with less disposable income, especially on the used market. And I think that’s great, it’s a perfect car for an enthusiast to realistically afford. But plenty of us are much older than that. Which speaks to the broad appeal of the twins. Much like the Miata.


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[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by AnalogMan

Bottom line, they probably could build a BRZ level car, but won't. There's less profit in that then selling fewer six-figure cars. And I also suspect they've long ago lost the knowledge of how to build a quality inexpensive car. The people who designed the 914 were very different than the engineers and accountants who work there today. So even if they decided they were willing to make less money on a cheaper car, I doubt they have the internal expertise to do that anymore.

They can't do it because they are still bind with the 911. They tried to kill it back in the '70s and '80s with the transaxle models, but with no success. The reason of ending the 968 production (last transaxle-model) was for cost cutting reasons. Their model line-up had almost no technological similarities at that time. Completely different engines (inline four, flat-six, V8), different body styles and different drive trains, just to name a few. The solution was via the magic formula of creating the 986 (Boxster) and the 996 (water-cooled 911). Two different models with as many shared parts as possible and mass production. In fact the 996 became the most sold Porsche 911 of all time. Thanks to the shared parts with its smaller sibling, it finally became profitable as well. All these with an impact of losing the line-up of least expensive cars.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

Any company could, if they wanted to make stupid small profits, or felt like making a loss.

I'm sure both Subaru and Toyota make little on the twins. I'm surprised they still make them.

Totally agree.

[Kiske]

Originally Posted by Sapphireho

BTW, I don't feel entry level when I drive my twin.

I feel like a basic white bitch.

[spike021]

Originally Posted by Tcoat

Agreed but that does not mean the car wasn't targeted at that group.
It most certainly is suitable for any group and my list is similar to yours (only about 10 years older for both me and the cars).
As I said it can be classed as an entry level car but it is not restricted to that.
People are putting far too much thought into the term.

This has turned into such a long thread for like 0 real good reason, IMO.