FR-S/BRZ vs. Genesis Coupe

[aliphian]

Originally Posted by BootpTraphik

'12 MazdaSpeed3 - 3281
'12 VW Golf R - 3325
'12 Ford Mustang V6 - 3453
'12 Infiniti G37 - 3633
'11 Nissan 370z - 3291
'11 Subaru WRX STi 5 door - 3373
'08 Mitsubishi Evo X MR - 3594

Jesus, the 86 is going to be around 1,000LBS lighter than the G37!

[Slide]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jay

wow didn't know the VW had gotten soo fat

That is the one with the AWD system in it.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I feel the same way about every single Subaru except for the BRZ.

^^^

Hyundai rear ends are absolutely gorgeous. Their fronts however are the ugliest I have ever seen. There's a Genesis that drives around Berkeley campus a lot and it looks so damn classy when it passes by. When it's parked and the front is visible though, eh...

[blur]

No doubt 800 lbs of weight are going to make a difference, lol.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by BootpTraphik

This forum is funny. People are REALLY sensitive about weight. Yes weight makes a big different in handling and overall performance, but I would not necessarily call 3400lbs overweight. I mean, it would be nice to drop 300 pounds, but you would certainly have to loose some key elements of the car, such as various creature comforts, safety mechanisms, and the relatively low cost of the platform.

...

Oh sure, just throw that all out there. Plenty of us aren't as sensitive about our weight as much as our HP.

You forgot to add the 2012 RX-8 which is 3100lbs and the BMW 128i/135i but I don't know how much those weigh.

Those cars are all light weights for their class. But they are all middleweights with the interior dimensions of a compact or subcompact.

[spin9k]

^ Actually the 2012 RX-8 is only 3065lbs 6-spd / 3111lbs auto - up from my 2004 model year @ 3029lbs 6-spd / 3053lbs auto

I'd say there are truly 3 weight groupings for sports cars discussed here - 3300-3600lbs 'heavy weight'; 2900-3300lbs 'mid weight' and finally 2500-2900lbs 'light weight'.

Anyone who shows up for track >3000lbs is doing pretty well weightwise. But if the GT86 is ~2600lbs, track setup could be easily 2500lbs or less with lightweight wheels, tires, rotors, exhaust, battery, no back seat, etc. That would be 200hp@a whole new level of fun.

[BootpTraphik]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Oh sure, just throw that all out there. Plenty of us aren't as sensitive about our weight as much as our HP.

You forgot to add the 2012 RX-8 which is 3100lbs and the BMW 128i/135i but I don't know how much those weigh.

Those cars are all light weights for their class. But they are all middleweights with the interior dimensions of a compact or subcompact.

lol, I just constantly see people arguing weight and saying how "fat" the Genesis Coupe is. But when compared to other cars that are similar in price, class, power it falls in as average when concerning weight. Simply put, the vehicles I listed (and the two you provided) are not in the same class as vehicles like the S2000, MX-5, FT-86 (et al), and say a Porsche Cayman.

Originally Posted by spin9k

^ Actually the 2012 RX-8 is only 3065lbs 6-spd / 3111lbs auto - up from my 2004 model year @ 3029lbs 6-spd / 3053lbs auto

I'd say there are truly 3 weight groupings for sports cars discussed here - 3300-3600lbs 'heavy weight'; 2900-3300lbs 'mid weight' and finally 2500-2900lbs 'light weight'.

Anyone who shows up for track >3000lbs is doing pretty well weightwise. But if the GT86 is ~2600lbs, track setup could be easily 2500lbs or less with lightweight wheels, tires, rotors, exhaust, battery, no back seat, etc. That would be 200hp@a whole new level of fun.

Just for the hell of it, so a Genesis Coupe 2.0T R-Spec would be a mid weight while the base model 3.8 would be a heavy weight? What about sports cars over 3600 lbs? I'm not arguing, I'm just curious.

Just curious again, but I thought the 86 was more like ~2700lbs or am I just splitting hairs? But I do agree, 200bhp and ~2600lbs will be fun, but I think 340bhp and 3400lbs has the same appeal, to me anyways.

FWIW, I consider anything 3100-3500 lbs and average for a mid size sports coupe/hatch/sedan based on what you currently see on the market.

Keep in mind that to reduce weight, a manufacturer has to take a few things into account when designing a vehicle.

LIST A
The following options save weight but decrease occupant comfort, performance, durability and safety:

- Reduce creature comforts like various electronics (power seats, cruise control, blue tooth, decent sound system, etc) or good seats, spare tire and equipment, and other things that make your life nice when driving long distances.
- Reduce overall safety be eliminating airbags, soft surfaces, crumple zones, safety reinforcement etc and other things that could prolong life in the event of an accident.
- Use cheaper, less durable materials designed to save weight rather than hold up to extreme forces (ie performance driving).
- Reduce engine size and performance options.

LIST B
The following options can save weight and increase performance, driver comfort, durability and safety:

- Use high quality components for creature comforts. This could be from lightweight, compact electronic controls to lightweight seats that maintain comfort.
- Use stronger yet lighter materials designed for high performance, such as titanium, aluminum, magnesium, carbon fiber. These materials can be used for body panels, suspension components or engine construction just to name a few.
- Spend more time engineering, testing, prototyping to find effective solutions to save weight while not sacrificing anything.

Now for the good part, the MAIN difference between list A and list B is...
You guessed it, COST! The question is, where does you car, the 86 or (to be on topic) the new Genesis Coupe fit in all these? This is where the boys are separated from the men, so to speak.

The Genesis Coupe was not put on a strict diet by its engineers.
It does not use high tech materials to save weight.
It DOES have many creature comforts and features to increase driver pleasure.
It DOES NOT sacrifice overall durability by using cheap components that cannot keep up with the marketed abilities of the car (ie performance, handling, etc), after all, that is its target market.
It DOES maintain excellent safety ratings and chassis rigidity.

This is reflected by the "you get what you pay for" factor. Same goes for a Lotus Exige, Porsche 911, or Nissan GTR. Those last examples totally out perform the GC in pretty much every way, but cost at least twice if not quadruple the asking price of even the Genesis Coupe 3.8 GT/Track. This is the same reason why a Chevy Sonic LTZ does not even come close to that same Genesis.

Here is the kicker for you anxious 86/BRZ owners, what would you rather sacrifice? Quality or your bank account? Because that what it is going to come down to. Myself? I would rather pay $33k (CND) and have a well engineered, lightweight car than a poorly engineered, lightweight, unsafe deathtrap selling for $22k (CND).

Sorry for my long posts. I just can't stand typing something and feeling like I missed something. At least I can give you guys something to read between news releases, photo bombs and other 86/BRZ goodies!

[SUB-FT86]

I notice you haven't mention the main reason the Genesis Coupe is 3,390 lbs. It seems like idiots on this site was expecting a mid size sport coupe(GC) to weigh as much as a tiny sport coupe(GT86). Both the GT86 and GC have good weight numbers on them. The GC is 16 inches longer and a lot wider.

[MightyAl]

I hate to break the news to you but every car manufacturer saves weight anywhere and everywhere they can. I did my senior project with Ford and they were willing to pay $2/lb to shave weight off of a vehicle. Every pound means better gas mileage and with ever stricter standards every pound is woth quite a bit.

You can pay a fortune for a heavier car but every single model has the same impact requirements. In the US those ridiculous requirements do not require the occupants to be seatbelted hence the nerfing and airbagging and crumpling to hell of body parts. We could save some weight simply by requiring standards for strapped in occupants.

You can pay quadruple for a lotus or ariel atom but they don't have any luxuries. Driving in a lotus is like driving a go cart with the same seat out of a go cart.

Weight savings is a give and take. It depends on what the consumer wants and I for one am sick of cars coming with all kinds of crap I don't want.

[Mr.Jay]

lol funny how when people want to bitch about the 86 and its 200hp and lack of turbo compared to the GC its fine but when comparing weight its suddenly stupid to even compare the two.

GC and 86 different class of cars will most likely be cross shopped by your average consumer due to pricing but two different cars aimed at two different groups.

GC: Entry level gt for those who want a G37ish type car without the cost. Lots of comfort and standards

86: Here is a great platform thats all about the joy of driving.

Toyota said it themselves they didn't start the 86 project to build a fast sports car cause thats what everyone else is doing they want to bring back the fun sport cars that are more about the drive then about the speed

[BootpTraphik]

@ MightyAl

Yes I agree with you for the most part. All manufacturers go to certain lengths to save weight for the reasons you stated, however, some go further than others. You still have to stay within the scope of the project.

A Ford Mustang COULD weight in at 3000lbs, but that would require some interesting engineering and some more expensive materials. Reducing the weight to that amount would simply put the vehicle out of the cost bracket they were aiming for. That's all I am saying.

@ SUB-FT86

Exactly. I didn't think it needed mentioning lol.

@ Mr.Jay

Again, exactly! I will admit OPENLY that the 86 will out maneuver the GC and at the same time be more "in tune" with the driver. Both are completely different class and made for completely different reasons.

GC was designed, engineered, and made to put Hyundai in the GT coupe market against the likes of Infiniti, Ford and, dont kill me, BMW.

86 was designed and engineered not to compete with anything, but rather to bring back something that Toyota HAD. What the 86 gets compared to is not designed, it is found.

[spin9k]

Originally Posted by BootpTraphik

What about sports cars over 3600 lbs? I'm not arguing, I'm just curious.

Like I said, "for the sports cars discussed here" so over 3600lb cars weren't part of that...

Originally Posted by BootpTraphik

Just curious again, but I thought the 86 was more like ~2700lbs or am I just splitting hairs? But I do agree, 200bhp and ~2600lbs will be fun, but I think 340bhp and 3400lbs has the same appeal, to me anyways.

No sure I've seen exact, between 2600-2700lbs depending I guess. 200hp/2600lbs= 13 p/w; 340hp/3400lbs= 10 p/w ... Heck yea, I'll take 10 p/w ratio car! I drive a 12 p/w RX-8 so that would be interesting. But then again - I would REALLY prefer the 330hp/2855lbs (8.75 p/w) of the Porsche R ... best of all worlds - but don't have the $75K to get it

[BootpTraphik]

Gotcha, makes sense now!

The new Genesis Coupe will be somewhere around 10lbs/hp, which is better than the current ~11lbs/hp.

Imagine how much the 86 would boogie with 270hp @ 2700lbs.

Its also good to remember that regardless of the curb weights of these cars, they don't account for our fat asses

[spin9k]

Originally Posted by BootpTraphik

Its also good to remember that regardless of the curb weights of these cars, they don't account for our fat asses

I've got that one down to 146lbs - a lean mean race car driving machine cause every ounce counts lol!