Who is happy the engine will be Naturally Aspirated?

[AshWilliams]

Pounds per horsepower is a useful yardstick for performance, hp per liter doesn't impress me as much.

Most performance cars are in the 8-9 lbs/hp. At 200 hp, the 86 is 13.5-14 lbs/hp. Some 1500 pickups have a similar ratio.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Ryephile, the FRS doesn't make 100HP/L. It only makes 197BHP.

Even then, you didn't include the 2011 Civic Si which makes exactly the same HP/L as the FRS. Emissions have not changed that much in one year.

Does the K20 pass current emissions? I think this year is when they updated the standards isn't it? Toyota/Honda care about getting the SULEV whatever ratings rather than just barely passing, so that might be part of the reason they stopped using the K, but that's just a wild guess.

Okay just checked wikipedia, apparently LEV II started in 2010 so the K20 does pass emissions.

However the K20 is clearly less efficient as it needs 7400rpm to make 200hp rather than 7000.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

Ryephile, the FRS doesn't make 100HP/L. It only makes 197BHP.

You know me better than that. :happy0180: I wouldn't have said it if it weren't accurate. USDM cars are advertising exactly 200HP, check it out HERE and HERE

[Homemade WRX]

Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed

I think it'll be a blast. The straight line guys won't be thrilled, but we all know that's not what this car is about.

Sorry for the delay in the response. Too busy getting ready for the Global Time Attack season...

Justin, not everyone with 600+whp is a straight line guy. I heart the turns so much, I want to get there without falling asleep :p

Ok, now back to helping keep an EJ'24' stay alive at 900hp going around a track in a 2800 lb car (still stuck in a heavy GD this season)

I'll be interested to see what components you guys are planning to release. Perhaps a IM session to share notes is in order...?

-Micah
3MI Racing

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by AshWilliams

Pounds per horsepower is a useful yardstick for performance, hp per liter doesn't impress me as much.

Most performance cars are in the 8-9 lbs/hp. At 200 hp, the 86 is 13.5-14 lbs/hp. Some 1500 pickups have a similar ratio.

unless you believe that this car will perform like a 1500 pickup, i think you just kinda proved the lbs/hp ratio to be a useless yardstick

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Does the K20 pass current emissions? I think this year is when they updated the standards isn't it? Toyota/Honda care about getting the SULEV whatever ratings rather than just barely passing, so that might be part of the reason they stopped using the K, but that's just a wild guess.

Okay just checked wikipedia, apparently LEV II started in 2010 so the K20 does pass emissions.

However the K20 is clearly less efficient as it needs 7400rpm to make 200hp rather than 7000.

I'm not aware of any emissions changes this year, only safety/crash changes. And like you said Honda don't go for barely passing anyway. The new one is still a K but it's a 2.4L instead of 2.0L. He was using the arbitrary HP/L metric so I wanted to point out something similar.

Okay, you updated your post.

Originally Posted by Ryephile

You know me better than that. :happy0180: I wouldn't have said it if it weren't accurate. USDM cars are advertising exactly 200HP, check it out HERE and HERE

And technically it is 200HP, on the international scale(200ps).

Sorry, I couldn't resist.:happy0180:

[blu_]

Originally Posted by fatoni

unless you believe that this car will perform like a 1500 pickup, i think you just kinda proved the lbs/hp ratio to be a useless yardstick

:happy0180:

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

And technically it is 200HP, on the international scale(200ps).

Sorry, I couldn't resist.:happy0180:

Just so we're clear, it's advertised as 200 PS [197 HP] in all other markets except the North American market. Here, it's advertised as 200 HP. The reason for the difference is speculation at this point.

[Allch Chcar]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Just so we're clear, it's advertised as 200 PS [197 HP] in all other markets except the North American market. Here, it's advertised as 200 HP. The reason for the difference is speculation at this point.

Oops, I meant to mention that in my post.

[Kunzite]

Your horses are slightly smaller and less powerful

[old greg]

Originally Posted by Kunzite

Your horses are slightly smaller and less powerful

Nein! Pferden über alles!

[KeepGuessing]

Originally Posted by Allch Chcar

If you han't noticed from the Miata comparisons, Mazda has this problem too. They always seem to be behind the curve and in the past they dealt with Ford to help spread costs for their engine development. The cost to develop a new engine is huge and the FA20 is Subaru's first GDI engine. I'm not using this to excuse it, but provide a background if you will.

Wasn't the entire purpose of Toyota's assistance to offset some of the GDI expenses? Especially considering the GDI is only implemented into the FA20, and not the rest of the engine lineup hitting the pavement in the next few years. I mean the D4S is a toyota proprietary product is it not? So i can't imagine that Subaru would be footing the bill for the overhead of implementing a Toyota product onto a car they designed to net Toyota more money.

Not just that, how much of the FA20 architecture is actually brand spanking new, I know the R&D testing and paper punching aspect of engine building is the majority of the coin spent, but i find it hard to believe this engine is getting the ground up treatment in those respects either.

FYI, it does make as much power at the same peak RPM as the new Civic Si's K24 and scored the same EPA score. Considering the differences in the two, the K24 has more displacement so less efficient, the Twins are RWD so more losses than FWD, it's doesn't differ greatly.

y i
Even THOUGH the Civic being an absolute anomaly in the Honda world (it being a terrible terrible product, so bad Honda is replacing it in record time)

The Civic does produce more power in both categories with it's K24.
It produces 201HP to the FRS/BRZ's 198....and produces 170Ftlbs of torque to the FRS/BRZ's 150.

However, on THAT note..The Acura RSX-S..which is going on 10 years old, has the exact same emissions statistics as the K24 in the new Civic si, same Emissions classification yata yata, and makes just as much power as the brand new Fa20....without direct injection....

Originally Posted by Ryephile

--> KeepGuessing, you're missing the two most influential parts of the engine equation: emissions regulations and cost.

Actually no, that was all looked into as-well to see if there was SOME sort of tangible evidence to justify the increase in technology without an increase in performance what so ever.

An old Honda B16 wouldn't pass emissions today, and making it do so would likely cripple its power output.

You would be EXTREMELY surprised unless epa.gov's test numbers are terribly incorrect; I know I sure was. I had no Idea the B16 was still a viable option in terms of emissions by todays standards in every location where Bin5 applies.... As it sits the B16's only fault lies in it's non-methane organic gasses. As for K series, every single performance K series (brought to the US) variant to date is Bin5.

The FA20 is about as cheap an engine can get these days and still claim to have modern tech [w/ DAVCS and D-4S being the only two pieces of tech]. There's no valve lift adjustment, unlike the old Honda's, so that's a disadvantage for the FA20 on top of modern emissions and cramped exhaust routing.

I don't understand how it becomes "as cheap as it can get" when it STILL has GDI and AVCS. Unless of course you're talking about the use of other companies proprietary systems (d4s), and it also depends on your definition of "tech" as there are internal steps taken to this engine that weren't S.O.P. in a majority of automakers a few years ago, and in fact still aren't for quite a few.

And once again, this still doesn't point any sort of understanding towards 200HP and 150ftlbs.

Bringing up the other engines into the question just begs the question, what would their emissions, fuel economy, and power production be like if they simply had "Gasoline direct injection" tacked onto their resume.

For extra credit, list naturally aspirated engines currently in production that make at least 100HP/L.

I'll go in as much alphabetical as i can.
Audi 5.2L TFSILamboripoff
BMW N13B16 1 Series
BMW N47D20 1 Series
BMW S65B40 M3
BMW S62b50 (Ascari Sourced)
Caterham 2.0 Duratec
Ferrari 4.3L V8 Cali
Ferrari 4.5L V8 458
Ferrari 6.2L V12 FF
Ferrari 6.2L V12 F12
Infiniti VQ35HR+Atkinson M hybrid
Lamborghini 5.2L V10 Audiripoff Gallardo
Lamborghini 397ci V12 Avent
Lexus 1LR-GUE LFA
Mercedes M285 SLS
Porsche 3.8L Various
Powertech powered anything
Hartley powered anything

that's exlcuding mom & pop companies..

ie Caparo, Humle, Ultima, Radical, Westfield, Ariel etc etc.

[mrtodd]

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

I'm sure there will be a fair share of people who put 2jz-gte's F20C's EJ20's etc etc, big budgets hold no bounds. But then the car is merely a shell of it's former self. Propping a Coyote 5.0 under the hood of a Murker XR4 hardly portrays how much potential the Murker has and producing a 2.2L B16A hardly shows the merit of that engine either. Which i'm pretty sure you understand what i'm saying in relation to the FA20.

KeepGuessing, let me start all over again here. I definitely understand your points in your response to my post, and I completely respect where you are coming from. No argument here. Let me apologize for being an ass from the get go.

Originally Posted by AshWilliams

No, I just got bored with people who are glad that the car is underpowered and think they are expert engine builders to the point that they feel confident in voiding a warranty and spending 5 grand on a turbo build that may or may not produce the same performance gains as the manufacturer would (and with the same durability) just go get their own unique snowflake of a car, then bemoan anyone who wants to buy a manufacturer tuned car because if they want a fast one they should have built one themselves. Not even mentioning it's easier to make minor changes to a manufacturer tuned car to make it faster than start with a blank slate.

I'm not a builder. I'm a driver. I don't want to spend my weekends getting my hands dirty, and waste time I could spend driving it, because that somehow is supposed to complete the experience for me. We all have the friend with the tuner car that spends its time in the garage and sees the street only to light up its dashboard with error codes or blows its engine after one 1/4 mile attempt.

A track day just requires a tire swap, I don't need to be a self-proclaimed expert in engines to do that. And if I want to race it, I'll just make sure that there's a guy on our team that is as good of an engine guru as some of the guys in this thread claim to be.

I just hope he doesn't crash the car.

Ash - definitely understandable what you're getting at. Also, my apologies for blowing it all out of proportion.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

And once again, this still doesn't point any sort of understanding towards 200HP and 150ftlbs.

What's the mystery? We've seen the manufacturer published power & torque graph, and a couple chassis dyno pulls. We know most of the specs, and the subsequent output. Are you looking for some sort of spoon-fed comprehensive thermodynamic and CFD analysis directly from the OEM, or the full 3D VE map? All that IP is certainly not going to be readily available, and those that belly-up the funds to measure that aren't likely going to be sharing it for your amusement. No, the FA20 doesn't make the same output/displacement as the Ferrari 458, but it's more than the GM LS7. Are you expecting realistic outputs given the relatively cheap cost of this engine?

Originally Posted by KeepGuessing

I'll go in as much alphabetical as i can.
Audi 5.2L TFSILamboripoff
BMW N13B16 1 Series
BMW N47D20 1 Series
BMW S65B40 M3
BMW S62b50 (Ascari Sourced)
Caterham 2.0 Duratec
Ferrari 4.3L V8 Cali
Ferrari 4.5L V8 458
Ferrari 6.2L V12 FF
Ferrari 6.2L V12 F12
Infiniti VQ35HR+Atkinson M hybrid
Lamborghini 5.2L V10 Audiripoff Gallardo
Lamborghini 397ci V12 Avent
Lexus 1LR-GUE LFA
Mercedes M285 SLS
Porsche 3.8L Various
Powertech powered anything
Hartley powered anything

that's exlcuding mom & pop companies..

ie Caparo, Humle, Ultima, Radical, Westfield, Ariel etc etc.

Lots of errors above. You included a handful of turbo engines, lots of non-EPA engines, and even an electric motor. You also forgot a few applicable engines.