Why I like Mazda engineers

[wbradley]

Its great that somebody invented an alternate combustion engine design.

A turbine is another one.

Any machine that works as a pump or compressor can be a combustion engine.

In this day and age there is no discernible advantage to a consumer market rotary powered car. Period.

And, I hate Mazda

[Dimman]

Hmmm... An engine you need to follow maintenance to the letter, then still cross your fingers that the apex seals don't randomly blow because the triangle-pushing fairies were drunk that Tuesday. Versus a shit ton of piston engines which survive with cursory, apathetic maintenance.

Yet both are 'equally' reliable...

I had a coworker that had triangles for brains tell me all the time about the wonders of 12As and 13Bs as he would pull them out and apart on his lunch breaks. I saw him personally replace 5 motors in 3 cars over 3 years. I've examined eccentric shafts, heard about dowel pinning the housings to increase longevity, and how apex seals are unpredictable no matter what you do. All learned from a rotory fan.

Rotaries suck balls everywhere except their compact size.

[themadscientist]

No finger crossing required. Every rotorhead I know has had the learning curve of a few popped motors. After that they learned how to build, tune and maintain them all was well. I didn't have to do that with mine. I learned by watching their mistakes. Saves a bunch of money and bad feelings.

Economically viable, not at all. The rotary will always be an "also ran" design, same with the turbine engine. That's ok, though. There's something out there for everybody.

Hell, all my Nissan buddies were ready to schedule an intervention when I said I liked the Leaf. To them, me looking at an electric car meant I must be abandoning internal combustion.

No, in the same way I can think outside the box and enjoy a rotary or a 2 stroke, so can I keep an open mind about electric. THAT'S the future, not rotors or pistons.

In 20 years when our gas-burning cars are an anachronism and probably seeing less and less places where they can be operated in first world countries I'll still have at least one because I understand it and like them.

I'll drive an electric, sure, if it looks like this!

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I2b9JhsuVE"]TG drives the Citroen Survolt - BBC Top Gear - YouTube[/ame]

[NWFRS]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Hmmm... An engine you need to follow maintenance to the letter, then still cross your fingers that the apex seals don't randomly blow because the triangle-pushing fairies were drunk that Tuesday. Versus a shit ton of piston engines which survive with cursory, apathetic maintenance.

Yet both are 'equally' reliable...

I had a coworker that had triangles for brains tell me all the time about the wonders of 12As and 13Bs as he would pull them out and apart on his lunch breaks. I saw him personally replace 5 motors in 3 cars over 3 years. I've examined eccentric shafts, heard about dowel pinning the housings to increase longevity, and how apex seals are unpredictable no matter what you do. All learned from a rotory fan.

Rotaries suck balls everywhere except their compact size.

Haha. This is fun. :-)

I couldn't agree more.

One of my best buddies is a rotary fanboy.

I've grown up with him. I've watched him blow up a half dozen engines at least, in the same number of years. He has ZERO appreciation for any other car ever made. Vintage Toyotas, Alfas, Maserati, Aston, TVR, Fiat, Lancia...all are utter s#it as far as he's concerned. He doesn't even like the old NSUs.

I can't help but notice that he's set a new record with the car he currently drives. He hasn't blown the motor yet and it's been like five years. His Fiancé's parent's Camry. :-)

[themadscientist]

Your friend is silly, then. His inability to appreciate other designs is just as bad. He deserves to drive a Camry, ewww!

Hell, it would have loved to drive a turbine car, but that never really got traction.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2A5ijU3Ivs"]1963 Chrysler Turbine: Ultimate Edition - Jay Leno's Garage - YouTube[/ame]

I hear similar BS arguments about diesel. Not fast? ORLY?

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKc_U_Q2s-o"]LBZ Duramax Chevelle 10.0 pass - YouTube[/ame]

Dirty? Not nearly as bad as in the past.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by themadscientist

No finger crossing required. Every rotorhead I know has had the learning curve of a few popped motors.

Um...

So, err... as reliable as a Civic I guess...

[tahdizzle]

Originally Posted by themadscientist

Your friend is silly, then. His inability to appreciate other designs is just as bad. He deserves to drive a Camry, ewww!

[themadscientist]

As long as reliability is the reason to have it, are Civics reliable anymore? My coworkers new Fit hybrid has been back to the dealer for major corrective action over five times. I'm really shocked. Reliability use to be a given with Hondas.

This guy went from zero knowledge about rotaries, through several popped motors to this beast. He now knows how to handle them and doesn't have trouble even at over 5 large to the wheels.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc6On-fNCoU"]FC RX7 Shooting Fire - drag tuning - YouTube[/ame]

I tried staging behind him on my 600 and the prostart fireballs almost set my legs on fire.

[dem00n]

Putting aside the technical gathering that will never be settled by forums.

A rotary is something to be experienced at least once, the reliability is questionable at best, but it's a special engine. Can the problems that cripple them be fixed? Yet again, questionaoble. I'd like to see what Mazda can do, because the skyactive stuff isn't all that interesting.

When i go to Greece i see a ton of RX8's. Now Greek people can be cheap on a lot of things (I know, i am one), so those things are running on those streets some way or another...

[Dimman]

Biggest problem with them from a future point of view (assuming you can find the right magical spell for apex seal reliability) is how they are fundamentally restricted on their induction and exhaust event timing, as well as flow efficiency. There is no VVT-i or VTEC available with a rotary. Their 'cams' are based on port shape as it is 'revealed' or 'opened' by the rotor/apex seal passing over it. These shapes are fixed so they can't play with overlap/no overlap like VVT-i or open bigger like VTEC's high lift lobe. The other problem is these ports are shape limited by the thickness of the part that separates the 'barrel' part of the housing. This restricts potential flow by requiring a more significant bend in the tract. And the timing 'reveal' shape is also not ideal from a flow perspective when it comes to turbulence. Finally they are compression limited by geometry.

They're at best 'neat' and typically rebuild time-bombs to Joe Average or maintenance intensive for Joe Rotary.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Edit: @rice_classic I think you're being a little unfair in your comparison. The ****bags that push trickle down, voodoo, Reaganomics whatever screw over everyone. The rotary does not screw over other enthusiasts, only helps by diversifying the field and adding competition.

I wasn't referring to the enthusiasts getting screwed over. you got the metaphor backwards.

"The benefit of a small minority is at the detriment of the majority".

Mazda and its shareholders are the majority and the enthusiast is the minority in that metaphor.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by rice_classic

Mazda and its shareholders are the majority and the enthusiast is the minority in that metaphor.

TIL more people work at Mazda and benefit from their business than the hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, that bought Rotary powered vehicles and sports cars that benefitted from Mazda's 'waste of time'.

I'll skip the argument that Mazda benefitted from having a sports car that won motor racing events and hearts because if it were true companies would be producing more sports cars that actually race.


Edit, Actually...

http://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discussi...oduced-227155/
Cosmo Sport：1,176 units
Familia/R100：　95,706 units　（coupe：　70,624 units / sedan：　25,082 units）
Capera/RX-2：　225,003 units　（coupe：　121,242 units / sedan：　103,761 units）
Savanna/RX-3：　286,685 units　（coupe：　159,732 units / sedan：　48,201 units / wagon： 78,752 units）
Savanna Van：　72 units
Proceed：　16,272 units
Parkway：　44 units
Roadpacer：　800 units
Cosmo/RX-65：　104,513 units
Eunos Cosmo：　8,875 units
Luce：　253,267 units
REPU: 15,xxx(waiting confirmation of this number)
RX-7：　811,634 units
RX-8：　191,026 units　（As of the end of Nov 2011）

So that's roughly a bit over 2 million rotaries sold by Mazda.

[radroach]

As an EV unit I think it's a good idea. Small and light. It only turns on when needed- and when it does it revs at a constant 4000 rpm which is ideal for loading up and charging a battery.

All this racecar flame-spitting talk is beside the point, they put the rotary in ideal working conditions and it works as intended.

[rice_classic]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

TIL more people work at Mazda and benefit from their business than the hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, that bought Rotary powered vehicles and sports cars that benefitted from Mazda's 'waste of time'.

I should explain my train of thought.

Non-rotary-engine purchases vastly exceed rotary-engine purchasers making rotary purchasers a minority. Therefore the portion of purchasers affected by the existence or extinction of rotary is a minority.

The number of people at Mazda that are affected by poor business decisions and constant pursuit of chasing a tech that didn't fit in a changed world: 100% (aka, the majority).

Mazda damn near didn't exist today. They were teetering on the brink not too long ago. The rotary isn't solely at fault but it was a big loss for a long time and it is my opinion that it took them too long to let go. If the rotary is the right answer to this ICE-supported electric car from an engineering standing point then run with it. But if there's a better option that they table so that they can play with their rotors again, just because, then that would be a terrible business decision.