Reducing the dip: Header without remap question

[wparsons]

Originally Posted by FR-S Matt

So in the past two years of tuning this car, one header out of the 10-12 out there eliminates the dip without a tune?

I'm sorry, but I need real proof and not vendor bloated dynos. We'll let the third party dynos do the talking. If there's no dip in the 5-10 people that dyno on it with a stock tune, then I will keep my mouth shut and I bought the wrong header. I'm just saying I think you will be quite surprised about the outcome.

It may attack it a little bit as Rev Works showed that as well with theirs on its own, but to completely eliminate it.... nope.

It all depends how much R&D time the shop was willing to put into a design. Some places may have had goals they wanted to hit, and when they got there they stopped instead of probing to just see how far they could go.

There's a ton of things that affect how much (and where in the rev range) a header will make more power, and it's all a balance against their goals, and R&D cost.

Just because some vendor was happy with their results doesn't mean someone else won't get better results with more R&D.

[Sypher]

Originally Posted by FR-S Matt

So in the past two years of tuning this car, one header out of the 10-12 out there eliminates the dip without a tune?

I'm sorry, but I need real proof and not vendor bloated dynos. We'll let the third party dynos do the talking. If there's no dip in the 5-10 people that dyno on it with a stock tune, then I will keep my mouth shut and I bought the wrong header. I'm just saying I think you will be quite surprised about the outcome.

It may attack it a little bit as Rev Works showed that as well with theirs on its own, but to completely eliminate it.... nope.

I understand you being skeptical and wanting to see 3rd party numbers. I totally agree even though i jumped and bought the FT86SF catted header already. (havent installed it yet though). There is only one problem that i see with your logic. the Borla UEL actually does a decent job of filling the torque dip as well. Look to the Drift Office: UEL Shoot out. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60586

Again i dont blame you for being skeptical as i usually am too but dont go out calling vendors liars right off the bat before you have proof they are full of shit.

[kuhlka]

Originally Posted by Sypher

I understand you being skeptical and wanting to see 3rd party numbers. I totally agree even though i jumped and bought the FT86SF catted header already. (havent installed it yet though). There is only one problem that i see with your logic. the Borla UEL actually does a decent job of filling the torque dip as well. Look to the Drift Office: UEL Shoot out. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60586

Again i dont blame you for being skeptical as i usually am too but dont go out calling vendors liars right off the bat before you have proof they are full of shit.

There is nothing wrong with being skeptical of a single broken dyno chart (notice the gap in the lines for their header) and claims of being able to completely eliminate the dip without a tune. Those kinds of claims reek of snake oil until actual customers start posting up dyno charts backing it up.

How about you go install your header and get it dyno'd? I don't think the Drift Office shootout was without tuning. They said 'same tuning methodology'. That implies they tuned for each header to get the best possible results with the same fuel.

I'd be amazed if a header alone magically eliminated the dip without any tuning whatsoever. I'd also like to see shops follow a standard instead of some using 4th gear pulls, then the E85 guys comparing 5th gear E85 pulls to 4th gear pump gas...

[Sypher]

Originally Posted by kuhlka

There is nothing wrong with being skeptical of a single broken dyno chart (notice the gap in the lines for their header) and claims of being able to completely eliminate the dip without a tune. Those kinds of claims reek of snake oil until actual customers start posting up dyno charts backing it up.

How about you go install your header and get it dyno'd? I don't think the Drift Office shootout was without tuning. They said 'same tuning methodology'. That implies they tuned for each header to get the best possible results with the same fuel.

I'd be amazed if a header alone magically eliminated the dip without any tuning whatsoever. I'd also like to see shops follow a standard instead of some using 4th gear pulls, then the E85 guys comparing 5th gear E85 pulls to 4th gear pump gas...

Again I did say a couple times i dont blame you for being skeptical. Never said you were wrong for being skeptical.

I do plan to get to a dyno as soon as i can after i get mine installed. I haven't the time or money to get a stock base line and a fallow up dyno so the dyno will be done with a CBE, Nameless Combo pipe with cat and res plus the FT86SF catted header. It has been noted through out the forum that a CBE and OP/FP does not fix the dip so the added parts shouldnt skew things too much.

I stand corrected on the Drift office dyno chart. you were right, after doing more digging the dyno on their main page was with tuning.

Just some fyi the main reason i bought this header is because i wanted a header that was catted. Mainly for volume (or the lack of) and while still illegal in Cali i have a better chance of passing emissions with a cat than without.

I do agree that it would be nice if shops would all fallow the same guidelines when dynoing cars. it would make it much easier to compare apples to apples.

[Trettiosjuan]

I have no problem believing it, there is no reason why there *should* be a torque dip in the first place if exhaust gas pulses are blending evenly across the revrange. The Speedfactory header also cuts some torque peaks before and after the dip so it might be a matter of blending the pulses just a bit instead of attempting to completely avoid interference.

And as pointed out above, with a remap, the whole torque curve even moves up and even peaks on some headers, is that impossible too? That was a rhetoric of course and remaps aren't the subject of this thread...

On the stock map, compared to other good headers we're talking 5hp here or there at the most, so no need getting too worked up about it, really.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Trettiosjuan

I have no problem believing it, there is no reason why there *should* be a torque dip in the first place if exhaust gas pulses are blending evenly across the revrange. The Speedfactory header also cuts some torque peaks before and after the dip so it might be a matter of blending the pulses just a bit instead of attempting to completely avoid interference.

And as pointed out above, with a remap, the whole torque curve even moves up and even peaks on some headers, is that impossible too? That was a rhetoric of course and remaps aren't the subject of this thread...

On the stock map, compared to other good headers we're talking 5hp here or there at the most, so no need getting too worked up about it, really.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

These effects have been explained, and the science behind it is why people are skeptical about the claims here.

[Trettiosjuan]

Sounds a bit harsh, but ok. Then please point me to the science, not a frequent visitor here. Thank you.

Edit: know what. I do feel a bit offended. You have no idea who I am and on what level I choose to put my explanation. I'm not sure I want to hang around if this is representative of the general tone on this forum.