Toyota is Working on a GT86 Hybrid

[Sonolin]

I'd take a factory turbo over anything else. But I doubt I'd trade mine in for one with a turbo at this point...

[dem00n]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

You're right, assuming the 'hybrid' powertrain is stolen from existing products (Prius/Yaris?) a flat six would be the most expensive change. If they do a proper performance hybrid powertrain I think that would cost more than a 6 cylinder.

As for the 6 vs. 4, when was the last new high revving 4 over the past 10 years? It's a pretty slim list of high revving cars under $100k.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redline...piston_engines

Hah, 6 cylinders are less sporty? How many sports cars come with 4 cylinders today? If you go by units sold I think V6's and V8's blow away 4 bangers, sooo many Camaros and Mustangs and Porsches.
List of sports cars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

TIL that our car has a similar redline to the Mclaren F1 and more 911's are sold per month than Miatas. Today was an educational day.

Alright, so you have the Cologne V6/Duratech V6 for the mustang, the Camaro L something V6 engine. The flat 6's in the Porches.

I'm not talking about units sold, i'm talking about sporty V6/I4 engines made. People buying a V6 Mustang and Camaro are clearly not buying those cars for power (Maybe some...?). Flat 6 in the Porches have been around forever.

"Sporty" V6/H6/I6:

Mustang
Camaro
Porsche 911
F-type
Infiniti G's,M's, Q's
Lexus
350Z/370Z
BMW's straight sixes
Genesis V6


"Sporty" I4/H4:

S2000
Daihatsu Copen (Not sold in the US)
MazadaSpeed 3
MX-5
Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky
FRZ/BRZ
WRX/STI
Civic SI
Fiat 500
VW GTI
Ford Focus
BMW's I4 engines
Genesis I4

A lot of those V6 engined cars have more powerful V8's next to them. Not that many I4's have more powerful engines that are put into that same car.

[Bristecom]

Once again, this is no confirmation of anything. Yes, they are working on a prototype and have the technology (which has been known for quite a while) but that doesn't mean it will make it to the official production car. All the guy said was, "The development work is quite advanced now, so if the green light is given, we are ready to do it."

Although I find this option interesting, I think there's just too much that could go wrong and it would add too much weight. That's why I keep saying 2.2-2.5L is the only way to go (unless they wanna go flat 6).

[Anthony]

I think the whole concept of a hybrid car is stupid, although I understand why they exist and don't blame the manufacturers or the consumers.

If combustion hurts the environment, then don't half ass it. JUST GO ELECTRIC. Stop beating around the bush, world. Holy shit. But even if everyone started driving electric-only cars tomorrow, where is that power coming from? We need geothermal power plants all over the world, and we need to switch to efficient (as in weight:power) 100% electric cars. Until that happens, I'll be avoiding these "hybrid" atrocities like the plague. I know we're fucking everything up, but the sooner we get rid of all this oil, the sooner we can progress. The people that run the world are going to keep thwarting progress until they're forced to move on.

[chulooz]

Originally Posted by dem00n

Alright, so you have the Cologne V6/Duratech V6 for the mustang, the Camaro L something V6 engine. The flat 6's in the Porches.

I'm not talking about units sold, i'm talking about sporty V6/I4 engines made. People buying a V6 Mustang and Camaro are clearly not buying those cars for power (Maybe some...?). Flat 6 in the Porches have been around forever.

"Sporty" V6/H6/I6:

Mustang
Camaro
Porsche 911 / cayman / boxster
F-type
Infiniti G's,M's, Q's
Lexus What is sporty about these two? (aside from the G)
350Z/370Z
BMW's straight sixes
Genesis V6


"Sporty" I4/H4:

S2000
Daihatsu Copen (Not sold in the US) If you are not staying domestic this list is waaaay too short
MazadaSpeed 3 turbo
MX-5
Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky v6
FRZ/BRZ
WRX/STI turbo
Civic SI
Fiat 500
VW GTI terbo
Ford Focus sporty?
BMW's I4 engines sporty? turbo?
Genesis I4 turbo

A lot of those V6 engined cars have more powerful V8's next to them. Not that many I4's have more powerful engines that are put into that same car.

Youve made a few mistakes, and some of those mills arent sporty or NA. Both lists are short. And people have been buying the v6 stangs giving them aftermarket support and making them into quick coupes, personally I think the V8 is key.

[P@ul]

Originally Posted by smbrm

An exciting development! I see nothing wrong with economical being part of the fun to drive equation. Emissions & fuel economy legislation and energy costs will drive all vehicles to adopt more fuel efficient designs in the future whether we like it not. Lighter weight is only one potential element in making a car fun to drive. I am sure that a wide variety of technologies and engineering know how can be combined to maintain the "fun to drive ". I am sure that if Toyota can design something like the TS030, they can do a "fun to drive" we'll handling hybrid FRS. A bigger issue I think will be "at an appealing price"!

Yes, for the love of GOD please some car company do SOMETHING NEW! Ultra caps or some kind of small flywheel would be pretty damn cool. This is, after all, coming from Toyota; the most successful manufacturer of hybrid vehicles to date.

Originally Posted by dem00n

I think an H6 option would require more engineering , new transmission and so forth. This hybrid system add on to the FA20 (Assuming they'll use the FA20) would require a good bit of engineering as well (battery location and so forth) but i just think the H6 option would be more money then most want to spend.

Subaru would never get the sales volume to pay off an H6 engine (and whatever else required components, like a different transmission). Combined with the emissions and fuel economy pressure today, I'd imagine Subaru's latest 2.0 turbo DI motor will be shortly replacing the H6. Subaru is way better off investing in their 4 cylinder engines. Some type of better variable valve timing would be a lot more useful for their entire engine portfolio, IE Valvetronic / MultiAir/ VVEL / etc.

Something like that I think would be extremely beneficial to our engine.

[czar07]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I think the whole concept of a hybrid car is stupid, although I understand why they exist and don't blame the manufacturers or the consumers.

If combustion hurts the environment, then don't half ass it. JUST GO ELECTRIC. Stop beating around the bush, world. Holy shit. But even if everyone started driving electric-only cars tomorrow, where is that power coming from? We need geothermal power plants all over the world, and we need to switch to efficient (as in weight:power) 100% electric cars. Until that happens, I'll be avoiding these "hybrid" atrocities like the plague. I know we're fucking everything up, but the sooner we get rid of all this oil, the sooner we can progress. The people that run the world are going to keep thwarting progress until they're forced to move on.

Ehhh????? Look at the La Ferrari, 918 Spyder and P1. Then tell me that hybrid cars are stupid...

[chulooz]

Originally Posted by czar07

Ehhh????? Look at the La Ferrari, 918 Spyder and P1. Then tell me that hybrid cars are stupid...

i8 too!

[DAEMANO]

Tada-san seems to find the key tenants of the '86 platform to be more important than powertrain dreams, and Chairman Toyoda gave him the reins on this project.

Some of the key tenants of the '86 platform are:

• Lightweight
• Linear Power Delivery
• Rear Drive
• Feel/Fun

Some of the options above change those traits

• Hybrid kills weight
• Hybrid kills feel/fun (in regards to the new manual transmission)
• Turbo kills linear Power Delivery (IMO if they wanted a turbo in this platform, they would have put one in there from the beginning).

IMO Best Options are

1. 2.0L Flat 4 with new header, VVL, and associated tune (likely)
2. 2.5L Flat 4 (possible)
3. 2.0L Flat 6 (pipe dream, I know).
4. 3.0L Flat 6 (possible)
5. 2.0L Flat 4 or 6 with belt driven supercharger (possible)
6. 2.0L Flat 4 or 6 with electric supercharger (this would also semantically qualify as a "hybrid" of sorts) (possible)

My bet is that the next '86 will be 1, 5, or 6 due to international tarrifs on engines larger than 2.0L and the above characteristics of what makes an '86 "authentic". Tada-san also doesn't seem to have much affinity for turbocharging the '86, but has spoke of a need for the "feel" of more power. That's where option 1 might be the most attractive.

[chulooz]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

Some of the key tenants of the '86 platform are:

• Lightweight
• Linear Power Delivery
• Rear Drive
• Feel/Fun

Some of the options above change those traits

• Hybrid kills weight
• Hybrid kills feel/fun (in regards to the new manual transmission)
  
• Turbo kills linear Power Delivery (IMO if they wanted a turbo in this platform, they would have put one in there from the beginning).

You are going to have to look at a graph of the 2.0DIT(and thats without simple mods that will make it even stronger), you will be eating crow.

[ChristosG]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I think the whole concept of a hybrid car is stupid, although I understand why they exist and don't blame the manufacturers or the consumers.

If combustion hurts the environment, then don't half ass it. JUST GO ELECTRIC. Stop beating around the bush, world. Holy shit. But even if everyone started driving electric-only cars tomorrow, where is that power coming from? We need geothermal power plants all over the world, and we need to switch to efficient (as in weight:power) 100% electric cars. Until that happens, I'll be avoiding these "hybrid" atrocities like the plague. I know we're fucking everything up, but the sooner we get rid of all this oil, the sooner we can progress. The people that run the world are going to keep thwarting progress until they're forced to move on.

I think the automotive industry has pretty much admitted that the focus of hybrids is not environmental friendliness anymore, but rather fuel economy, or in the case of hypercars and maybe soon the 86, instant torque and performance.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by chulooz

You are going to have to look at a graph of the 2.0DIT(and thats without simple mods that will make it even stronger), you will be eating crow.

These were choices made for the current car by engineers and test drivers that have access to plenty of charts, graphs, cars and mules to figure it out. From what I've read, turbo throttle response, power delivery (HP and TQ) + economy still aren't equal to what's available naturally aspirated. What's your experience been here?

[chulooz]

Originally Posted by DAEMANO

These were choices made for the current car by engineers and test drivers that have access to plenty of charts, graphs, cars and mules to figure it out. From what I've read, turbo throttle response, power delivery (HP and TQ) + economy still aren't equal to what's available naturally aspirated. What's your experience been here?

Subaru's 2.0DirectInjectionTurbo has been one of the most linear motors theyve produced, and thats even without an aftermarket message. Plus the power potential is unobtanium for a NA equivalency.

There are some people that wont substitute tire brands because 'thats what the people who made the car chose' but the reality is that the car is full of compromises waiting to be overcome by the end user.

Toyota and Subaru will chose different paths for the futures of their respective cars, the best is yet to come.

[DAEMANO]

Originally Posted by chulooz

Subaru's 2.0DirectInjectionTurbo has been one of the most linear motors theyve produced, and thats even without an aftermarket message. Plus the power potential is unobtanium for a NA equivalency.

There are some people that wont substitute tire brands because 'thats what the people who made the car chose' but the reality is that the car is full of compromises waiting to be overcome by the end user.

Toyota and Subaru will chose different paths for the futures of their respective cars, the best is yet to come.

That all sounds good, but you didn't discuss fuel economy and I can see why... Subaru's 2.0L Direct Injection Turbo gets 23city/28hwy MPG and is only that "good" because it's mated to a CVT. Subaru suggests a 19% increase in fuel economy directly due to the CVT itself. so we're looking more like 19city/24hwy MPG at best with a manual transmission on premium fuel only. Fuel economy has always been one of the many downsides of turbocharging and it remains. The HP and TQ gains are not free.