Stiff 2nd Gear actuation when cold on manual 6 Speed of FRS/BRZ? There's a reason!

[tech4pdx]

I will have to disagree to an extent. I am going by prior experience in what was my previous love affair: my modded 2000 Trans Am WS6 6MT Convertible.

It came with a Borg Warner/Tremec T-56 6sp manual. Brass synchros and rated to handle 450 ft/lbs of torque (just like the Vipers of that era). Excellent transmission, but with a sometimes leaky slave cylinder. Only gave me problems twice in 70k of hard driving.

In very cold weather, well below freezing, I never once had any problem shifting that thing in 2nd or any other gear for that matter. It look a lot of abuse too, on the factory fluid. Never changed it.

Now.. On my FR-S, different story. I will only say that switching to Pentosin 75W80 MTF2 fluid "cured" the issues. Previously, I was barely able to pull the car out of 1st and 2nd was a no-go. I had to shift to 3rd instead. I learned to start warming up the fluid slowly in 1st just to get something drivable within 5 minutes.

Not bashing my own car.. I like it now that Pentosin makes it feel better.

[DarkSunrise]

My STI also had a difficult 1-2 shift when cold. Same with my RSX. I'd say it's normal for cars with tighter transmissions.

[dem00n]

So every car i drive that has morning wood 2nd gear is a race car?

Guess my infiniti I30 was a race car.

[Hordur]

Like most things, this "issue" is easily solved. It just costs a few $.

http://www.synchrotech-transmissions..._Synchros.html

"Carbon Synchro History:

2001: Honda introduced the use of carbon lined synchros in the JDM K20 ITR on 3rd and 4th gears and on the D17 Civic 1st gear. I first noticed a carbon synchro on 5th gear in a USDM trans in 2002 on an H22 transmission that I was rebuilding. After doing some research, I discovered that Honda had a technical service bulletin to replace the 5th sleeve set with an updated carbon lined synchro to reduce the shift grind. They have since also used update kits with carbon lined synchros for other models with shift issues and started using them in several late model transmissions."

[tomato86]

It happens. My Evo was like this too.

[Skurj]

My Yaris has the same issue with 1st when cold, must be because racecar as well.

[Moto-P]

Originally Posted by coyote

I think it's pretty safe to say that Tada's role now involves a LOT of public relations. Only a PR person would say the things he did recently about the torque dip. Only a PR person would be authorized to conduct the interviews and put forward Toyota's version of the partnership.

I suspect his selection for the project was as much because of his appearance, language and public relations skills as his engineering talents. It appears that he is being groomed as a Toyota engineering spokesperson (that is public relations) and probably more in time to come.

Good on him. He appears to be good at it, but I think it a bit naive to view his comments as inside technical info rather than carefully scripted PR.

Well, it's pretty much the fans and the internet information cycle that put Tada-san at the forefront of speaking about the FT86. It wasn't a calculated choice by TMC but rather what happened naturally with the power of the internet and fanbase asking for him, and Toyota simply allowing it to happen based on the demands.

PR or not, and take it however way you wish to take it on this and other matters, about any information sent to me from any engineers or PR group. It's nice to know that they are aware, and have an explanation, instead of hiring 50 lawyers to erase the complaints?

My thinking is that they wanted a pretty precise feel in the transmission which the FT86's 6MT has at driving temperatures, and they've had their own battles in planning against those who felt the transmission could be a bit more vague, but consistent like the ones in modern Corvettes... They just chose the "feel" of the Porsche 911, rather than the American feel. That's all within the capability to create, but one came with a flavor that some like, and other design that they did not choose, which comes with a flavor of a more mundane but less fluctuation on the feel of the shifter.

But trying to keep the transmission very compact and light, while trying to push a lot of power through it (eventually), they, perhaps chose to cut the gears closer and angled the teeth a bit more aggressively to keep overall power capacities in check. One could have a looser and more clunky box to handle the power but it would just have to become more heavier and larger. Something they were really adamantly trying to avoid for this particular car though at design stage.

That would be my hypothesis on this one, without my huge level of contemplation at this point. I also keep in mind that when I say power, I mean not the mere 160 or so net power that goes through this box from the simple engine loads, but the realistic abusive loads that people commonly put in the transmission with modern tires, and kicking the pedal, first-time learners slapping the pedals abruptly, mismatched rev shifts, and dozens of other factors, that put a lot more load and driveline shock, than the small loads that even the modded the engines can put through it.

[zooki]

Originally Posted by Hordur

Like most things, this "issue" is easily solved. It just costs a few $.

http://www.synchrotech-transmissions..._Synchros.html

"Carbon Synchro History:

2001: Honda introduced the use of carbon lined synchros in the JDM K20 ITR on 3rd and 4th gears and on the D17 Civic 1st gear. I first noticed a carbon synchro on 5th gear in a USDM trans in 2002 on an H22 transmission that I was rebuilding. After doing some research, I discovered that Honda had a technical service bulletin to replace the 5th sleeve set with an updated carbon lined synchro to reduce the shift grind. They have since also used update kits with carbon lined synchros for other models with shift issues and started using them in several late model transmissions."

Funny, Borg Warner started using carbon fiber synchros in their T5 transmissions the 90's
http://www.pro-forceperformance.com/t-5_history.htm
...my 93 Mustang came with them. But this is off topic, sorry.

[Moto-P]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

I don't think @Moto-P talked directly to Tada on this one; he talked to AISIN and the technical staff who worked with Tada.

I actually received this call from Mr.Tada, from a room full of engineers as mentioned located in Japan... While I was driving to pick up my kids. Kudos to AT&T for having good reception and fiber lines for talking to someone 8000 miles away.

This was after I listed some of the common complaints about the FT86 to him a few weeks ago, not limited to this 2nd gear thing, but several other things I see, from the voices of the owners.

[Bristecom]

Thank you Moto-P! You know, now that you say that, I am reminded of an excellent transmission rebuilder who specialized in Mitsubishi transmissions who once explained the very same thing.

Although, I still think there is room for improvement for their transmission oil so hopefully they can focus on that.

[Moto-P]

Originally Posted by dem00n

So every car i drive that has morning wood 2nd gear is a race car?
Guess my infiniti I30 was a race car.

LOL! Then again, it uses the same transmission as ER34 Skyline GT and the Z33 right?

[Bristecom]

Originally Posted by Moto-P

I actually received this call from Mr.Tada, from a room full of engineers as mentioned located in Japan... While I was driving to pick up my kids. Kudos to AT&T for having good reception and fiber lines for talking to someone 8000 miles away.

This was after I listed some of the common complaints about the FT86 to him a few weeks ago, not limited to this 2nd gear thing, but several other things I see, from the voices of the owners.

Would you mind sharing some of the other complaints raised and any other feedback you got?

Also, can you tell them to turn off the stupid "Slip Off" light when you turn VSC Sport on. I don't see why both indicators need to be on the dash just for sport mode. It's a small thing but annoying and should be an easy fix for them. LOL

And by the way, Ichitaka sent a bunch of our questions to Tada-san a while back which were never answered... Can you see if he ever received those? Thanks.

[bestwheelbase]

Originally Posted by switchlanez

I don't think @Moto-P talked directly to Tada on this one

Originally Posted by Moto-P

I actually received this call from Mr.Tada... While I was driving to pick up my kids.

This is so cool! Really it is fantastic! For the automaker to have such direct communication with the enthusiast base, we are very fortunate.

[Moto-P]

Originally Posted by tech4pdx

I will have to disagree to an extent. I am going by prior experience in what was my previous love affair: my modded 2000 Trans Am WS6 6MT Convertible.

It came with a Borg Warner/Tremec T-56 6sp manual. Brass synchros and rated to handle 450 ft/lbs of torque (just like the Vipers of that era). Excellent transmission, but with a sometimes leaky slave cylinder. Only gave me problems twice in 70k of hard driving.

In very cold weather, well below freezing, I never once had any problem shifting that thing in 2nd or any other gear for that matter. It look a lot of abuse too, on the factory fluid. Never changed it.

Now.. On my FR-S, different story. I will only say that switching to Pentosin 75W80 MTF2 fluid "cured" the issues. Previously, I was barely able to pull the car out of 1st and 2nd was a no-go. I had to shift to 3rd instead. I learned to start warming up the fluid slowly in 1st just to get something drivable within 5 minutes.

Not bashing my own car.. I like it now that Pentosin makes it feel better.

Yes, sometimes going to a friction modifier at your own risk, can make things more functional, and that is what all automotive enthusiasts encourages you to explore. Even CE Tada says he loves for all enthusiastic owners to covet and experiment with various features and modifications. But he too, while being left to enthuse more than ever as a Toyota corporate staff as a personal lover of automobile and motorsports, is still working within confines of a very large firm.

To really make him happy perhaps, is for us to bring feedback and suggestions as we do, and give them back the knowledge too. Some or most of the suggestions might not be something that can pass the rigorous other standards for chemical properties, longevity that Toyota aims for products, costs, and hundreds of parameters that assure Toyota who they are. But even a several billion dollar R&D resources at Toyota is nowhere near the R&D capability of all the enthusiastic owners and 3rd party teams combined.

I think it is fair to say, we can and should do our part in making the FRS/BRZ more our own, from here... and develop these cars together.

The ORIGINAL AE86 was a car that came with a few key essential parts and in a great package. But conjured from mere and simple Corolla pieces and bits, it was the owners and tuners, over the course of 30+ years that made them the cult cars and enjoyable and potent cars today. If the FT86 siblings carry the same blood, why don't we adore the car and repeat the process as owners and enthusiasts?
AE86 out of the showroom wasn't nearly as spiffy as most of the cooler AE's out there today. And FT86 should not be perfected just yet only 12 months after launch, if we can help it!

I've put RSR Ran-Up in the engine and got a few ponies more where it counts, right in the middle of the rev ranges. That's really not a lubricant, but surface friction modifier... I might even try it in a manual transmission car (mine's a paddle as you all know). If Super GT teams all use this and if GT500 Sard SC430 gets 9km/h trap speed at the end of the straight at Fuji using in their gearbox... And drivers all raving how stable the shift feel becomes in their sequential dog-box... Hummm... Maybe, just maybe?