Nissan Sakura - The $14k kei car that sold out in Japan

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by alex87f

There isn't much a 2023 vehicle does that a smaller equivalent from 15 years ago doesn't.

Yes, to some extent it's the OEMs maximizing profits in larger cars, but there are still small(ish) cars or crossovers out there that are not purchased in the numbers they used to be. Admittedly there isn't much in the under $20,000 range any longer.

Part of this has to do with the increase on cost of vehicles vs increase in income. As the ratio rises persons make choices on vehicles that meet more marginal needs (one fits all) vs maybe owning a couple of vehicles (a commuter and a family car).

I just feel like if there was a real niche for cars/trucks this size it would be filled. Look at the recent return of smaller trucks (Maverick, etc). Where there is a market it eventually gets filled.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by alex87f

This is a chicken or the egg type of situation. Are they gone because the public doesn't want them, or are they dismissed by the buying public because larger vehicles are pushed onto the consumer through marketing / availability / etc. ?

There isn't much a 2023 vehicle does that a smaller equivalent from 15 years ago doesn't.

Its not really a chicken/egg scenario. Small cars just dont sell in big numbers here (Canada is much more accepting of small cars, but they just follow the US so whatever the US does, Canada does). I think initially they were the "cheap" way into car ownership because obviously they used to be cheap. But over time they got expensive and then it becomes used bigger car vs new small car.

And for whatever reason you ask a family who owns a small car and looking to trade it in for something bigger for their growing family....they feel like they need something that is the size of a minivan that ISNT a minivan..... I often ask myself do you REALLY need all that space? do you REALLY need something that big? Apparently they do.

I can't fathom NEEDING anything larger than our BMW X1, it does everything we need it to do in terms of hauling stuff and people.

"Bigger is better" is the mantra here.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Jimny is sold in Mexico. Tell me you wouldn't want this beast to go off-roading? Small cars are gone intentionally. It isn't because consumers don't want them. It is because manufactures want to sell the biggest thing possible to make the most money, but it isn't what may be best. We just need incentives. EVs could fix everything that sucks about a minicar; more room, more performance, better safety, better handling, etc. I'm saying we should revisit them and incentivize production and sale of minicars. With robotaxis and FSD cars, seems like these will be there in the future.

a small EV is still going to be a small car, its not changing anything. Minicars are a niche in the US, average joe isnt going to want them because they're cool, they want their bigass dodge RAM for grocery getting and hauling stuff because they "need that space"

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

..I can't fathom NEEDING anything larger than our BMW X1, it does everything we need it to do in terms of hauling stuff and people.

I can tell you that in the height of family hauling (3 sons) we would have never survived in the X1. Could we have gotten by with it? Probably. Would it been a nice peaceful experience, nope, nope, nope, not at all.

Our family hauler for 20 years and two versions were Chevy Astros. The best, non-sporty car I ever owned. If they made them today, I would buy one. Between the two I drove over 530,000 miles that were basically trouble free.

[Dadhawk]

Speaking of the Jimmy, my favorite ever modded car was a Jimmy that I ran across when doing some ATV offroading near Daniel Boone National Forest in KY back in the late 90s.

It had four foot high tires and a diesel engine out of a school bus in it with an extended front to cover it. I think the thing could have climbed a tree.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I disagree. Yes, there is some set of the buying public that would love a small vehicle like this, but at least in the US, it isn't there. It isn't some grand conspiracy, it's just not what the buying public wants in a vehicle any longer in any meaningful numbers.

Just the fact that you think they should be subsidized to drive interest speaks to the interest not being there. The products should stand on their own, as should EVs for that matter.

Federal and state governments provide all types of subsidies, grants and tax breaks to individuals, industries and corporations. It does this for housing, healthcare, oil industries, energy industries, meat and dairy, agriculture, education, etc. Despite what you said, I don't think you believe that the government should stop subsidizing meat, right, or that there is no demand for meat and dairy products? There clearly would be less demand if they didn't subsidize the products, which was part of your point, but your point would only be truly valid if there was no demand despite the subsidies, and we should subsidize something if it is in our interests. I'm saying there is demand, but we don't have supply, and it is in our interest to have more people drive smaller vehicles (especially EV variants) than single occupants driving 6,000 trucks and SUVs.

We pay $20 billion on direct fossil fuel subsides each year.
We pay $38 billion on direct farm subsides to support mostly the meat and dairy industry each year.

The U.S government spends $38 billion each year to subsidize the meat and dairy industries, but only 0.04 percent of that (i.e., $17 million) each year to subsidize fruits and vegetables. A $5 Big Mac would cost $13 if the retail price included hidden expenses that meat producers offload onto society. A pound of hamburger will cost $30 without any government subsidies.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

a small EV is still going to be a small car, its not changing anything. Minicars are a niche in the US, average joe isnt going to want them because they're cool, they want their bigass dodge RAM for grocery getting and hauling stuff because they "need that space"

Just like a Tesla Model S had far more space than a similar sedan in its segment, minicars that are EVs would have more space than minicars with ICEs. The Model S had a frunk and trunk. It had a longer wheelbase, so there was more leg room and passenger space. There was no driveshaft hump, so there was no cabin intrusions into foot areas and into storage compartments.

An EV minicar might have the interior volume of an ICE subcompact. It might offer the safety of a subcompact too.

If the Nissan Sakura was sold for $14k in the US and qualified for $7,500 in tax rebates like other EVs, so it was $6,500, you think these wouldn't sell in the 100k+/year? I would buy one in a second as a daily and as a backup when I'm working on my BRZ.

[Dadhawk]

On the not so small side, GM just announced the vehicle that could use this vehicle as a shuttlecraft. Escalade IQ

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

If the Nissan Sakura was sold for $14k in the US and qualified for $7,500 in tax rebates like other EVs, so it was $6,500, you think these wouldn't sell in the 100k+/year? I would buy one in a second as a daily and as a backup when I'm working on my BRZ.

Wouldn't qualify unless they built it in the US (or changed the subsidy, which seems unlikely) but I agree it would be more spacious and would make a great second car, or town car. Not sure I would recommend it as a first car for a teen.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Federal and state governments provide all types of subsidies, grants and tax breaks to individuals, industries and corporations. It does this for housing, healthcare, oil industries, energy industries, meat and dairy, agriculture, education, etc.

Doesn't mean any of it is right. Stop subsidizing things and return the money to the folks that earned it. Focus on direct social programs rather than industry social programs.

Will it happen, no, should it, yes.

[Sasquachulator]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I can tell you that in the height of family hauling (3 sons) we would have never survived in the X1. Could we have gotten by with it? Probably. Would it been a nice peaceful experience, nope, nope, nope, not at all.

Our family hauler for 20 years and two versions were Chevy Astros. The best, non-sporty car I ever owned. If they made them today, I would buy one. Between the two I drove over 530,000 miles that were basically trouble free.

hah im probably only thinking of a family of four. if the family is bigger, an X1 isnt gonna cut it. Helps that im not a tall american, just an average asian who is shorter so small cars work better for me.

but even still theres families of four out there that need something like...a minivan....really? do you REALLY need a minivan? do you really need an escalade? Excess is the defining factor. Some would need it, some do not.

If we scale it way back down to the Nissan Sakura.....if an X1 isnt going to fit the bill no way in hell a Sakura will.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

Doesn't mean any of it is right. Stop subsidizing things and return the money to the folks that earned it. Focus on direct social programs rather than industry social programs.

Will it happen, no, should it, yes.

Just because something is done, doesn't mean it is right or wrong or should continue to be done, even if it has been done for good reasons at one point in time; this is true, but that isn't what I was saying. I was simply saying that just because subsidies exist, doesn't indicate that there is a lack of demand, just like we can all agree that there is a strong demand for meat and dairy products, while we can also agree that many Americans would be priced out of buying meat and dairy products without subsidies.

If we got rid of all subsidies then tax dollars would mostly go back to those that pay the most taxes, which are those with the highest incomes and wealth, so rich people. Some subsidies seem to be redistributing the wealth from the wealthy to other wealth people or just right back to the wealthy people that paid those taxes (reducing their effective tax rate), but there is a lot of subsidies that redistribute wealth back to lower incomes, while also stirring the economic pot to drive investment.

I agree that subsidies would be best if they go to social programs more than corporate programs (trickle up instead of trickle down economics), which is why I am in favor of tax incentives to buy EVs, and why I would like to see incentives for EVs at every level of the income spectrum and not so heavily skewed to large SUVs, premium vehicles and luxury vehicles.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Sasquachulator

hah im probably only thinking of a family of four. if the family is bigger, an X1 isnt gonna cut it. Helps that im not a tall american, just an average asian who is shorter so small cars work better for me.

but even still theres families of four out there that need something like...a minivan....really? do you REALLY need a minivan? do you really need an escalade? Excess is the defining factor. Some would need it, some do not.

If we scale it way back down to the Nissan Sakura.....if an X1 isnt going to fit the bill no way in hell a Sakura will.

I know you have HOV lanes in Calgary and Canada. If they are anything like the carpool/HOV lanes here then they are comparably empty during rush hour traffic. This indicates to me that most people are traveling in single occupancy vehicles.

The average occupancy per vehicle dropped from 1.87 in 1977 to 1.5 in 2019. Household size dropped from 3.4 to 2.6. Average American is 25lbs heavier than their 1960's counterparts. Average vehicle weight has gone up 800lbs since the 80's when cars got smaller and lighter than the steel behemoths in the 50's, 60's and 70's due to the gas crisis; before the 80's, vehicles weighed closer to what cars weigh today without the benefits of more powerful engines and lighter alloys/materials. Dimensionally, cars are far bigger today. If most Americans are driving by themselves or with one other person and carrying an extra 25 lbs on their frame, do we need 800 lbs of extra weight and larger dimensions to our vehicles? Probably not. Seems like many people could commute in a mini EV, as a primary commuter, and then they could have a single family vehicle for group traveling. Even if a quarter of cars on the road were mini, especially single seaters, the decrease in energy demand and road congestion would be significant.

https://css.umich.edu/publications/f...tion-factsheet
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/0...ds%20in%202002.

Maybe a special HOV lane for single seater EVs and motorcycles would boost sales. The Toyota Coms EV is a single seater, but if it had a radial flux motor and solid state or lithium ion (silicone) battery, the power and range would be more than adequate.

[alex87f]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Just like a Tesla Model S had far more space than a similar sedan in its segment, minicars that are EVs would have more space than minicars with ICEs. The Model S had a frunk and trunk. It had a longer wheelbase, so there was more leg room and passenger space. There was no driveshaft hump, so there was no cabin intrusions into foot areas and into storage compartments.

An EV minicar might have the interior volume of an ICE subcompact. It might offer the safety of a subcompact too.

If the Nissan Sakura was sold for $14k in the US and qualified for $7,500 in tax rebates like other EVs, so it was $6,500, you think these wouldn't sell in the 100k+/year? I would buy one in a second as a daily and as a backup when I'm working on my BRZ.

Makes me think of this:

https://newatlas.com/automotive/oka-cozy-micro-camper/