2022 Lotus Emira, the last ICE for the brand.

[Irace86.2.0]

It looks like a nice Evora replacement, and I like the quality and design. I am not interested in an Evora replacement. I’m interested in an Elise or Exige replacement. For that weight and price, I would buy the Cayman/911.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

I’m interested in an Elise or Exige replacement. For that weight and price, I would buy the Cayman/911.

Absolutely. Sadly though the chance of anyone making anything close to the Elise is close to zero. Alfa tried with the 4C to less then stellar results (at least in the US). All other manufacturer's just throw in more power (and weight).

[Stonehorsw]

Beautiful car! A 2+2 would be amazing (if feasible).

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

Absolutely. Sadly though the chance of anyone making anything close to the Elise is close to zero. Alfa tried with the 4C to less then stellar results (at least in the US). All other manufacturer's just throw in more power (and weight).

If Miata can do it then I don’t see why others can’t be successful at a low weight. The 4C just had flaws for its price. Most specifically for me, no manual option. My guess is that a light weight roadster would appeal to enthusiasts more than the luxury sports car crowd, so a manual would do well, even if it doesn’t do better than an auto. I feel like the car should have undercut its competitors like the Cayman or Supra, but the carbon fiber chassis was just too expensive. If they had done a carbon composite filler like BMW did with the i3 then maybe that would have dropped the price and made it a better selling car.

Also, it was the first Alfa to hit the states in a long time. Quality control and longevity needed to be proved. Italian styling was unique for anything other than a Ferrari in the states, so it was different. Change a few things and had it come from a different manufacturer, and it could have done better.

I think we are also moving past all out power/acceleration performance with horsepower wars. Realistically, it is easy to get cheap, reliable horsepower that is far more than most people can handle. 700+hp is not that big of a deal. Get a used Mustang GT and throw E85 and boost and for under $50k someone can have 700+hp. With electric, 0-60 is just so fast, instant and seamless with gearless transmissions that I think in the short term sporty cars will shift to electric and alternatively, they will shift to light weight, smaller-turbocharged engines that are about handling and feel over performance numbers. Those numbers are just less relevant now than they were.

Manufacturers might as well invest now in light weight chassises because lighter cars with smaller batteries will have better range. The only way sporty cars will make sense in an EV future is being light because power will be an over-played novelty. Hybrids and small displacement ICEs will be necessary.

I think Lotus missed the mark with this car. They had an opportunity to leave a lasting mark in history on the last, premium, light-weight, ICE, sports car, but instead, they made an updated Evora that will likely get outsold by the Cayman, Supra and Corvette.

Imagine what they could have done with a premium, CTR K20C that weighed sub 2500lbs and was priced sub $50k.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

If Miata can do it then I don’t see why others can’t be successful at a low weight.

A great kudos to Mazda for sticking with it! Yet the Corvette, which is 2x to 3x more expensive than a Miata outsells it by about 3x. I think that sums up the (sad) state of the sports car market nicely.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Imagine what they could have done with a premium, CTR K20C that weighed sub 2500lbs and was priced sub $50k.

As much as I want to share it with you, this is the same pipe dream as the turbo sub $30k 2nd gen Twin.
Even if that was a technical possibility (which US regulations might not allow), there's no way that would cost sub $50k. That was the price of the Elise 15 years ago. The Ariel Atom 4 lives up to your requirements (and then some), but how much does that cost (hint, more like $80k)?
And even if it was possible, who would buy a 300 HP car for $50k when you have the 380 HP Supra for the same price or a 490 HP Corvette for a little bit more?

[gymratter]

[Kiske]

3100lbs in 2022 isn't a bad place to be. -If they deliver on their quality improvements. Definitely a, "Don't buy the first model year," type of car.

Miata RF Grand Touring 2500lbs
BRZ/GR86 2800lbs
Civic Type-R 3100lbs
Golf GTI-R 3100lbs
Emira 3100lbs
Cayman GTS 3200lbs
400z 3300lbs
A91 Supra/Z4 3400lbs
C8 Corvette 3400lbs
992 Carrera 4S 3500lbs
M2 Competition 3600lbs
Giulia Quadrifoglio 3800lbs
M3 Competition 3900lbs
RC-F Track Edition 3800lbs
Camaro ZL1 1LE 3900lbs
GT-R NISMO 3900lbs
Mustang GT500 4200lbs

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

A great kudos to Mazda for sticking with it! Yet the Corvette, which is 2x to 3x more expensive than a Miata outsells it by about 3x. I think that sums up the (sad) state of the sports car market nicely.

As much as I want to share it with you, this is the same pipe dream as the turbo sub $30k 2nd gen Twin.
Even if that was a technical possibility (which US regulations might not allow), there's no way that would cost sub $50k. That was the price of the Elise 15 years ago. The Ariel Atom 4 lives up to your requirements (and then some), but how much does that cost (hint, more like $80k)?
And even if it was possible, who would buy a 300 HP car for $50k when you have the 380 HP Supra for the same price or a 490 HP Corvette for a little bit more?

Yes, the sports car market has moved upstream, and the affordable sporty car/sedan market is more dominant. If a manufacturer has the mentality that their efforts would be better spent on other products than sports cars then a profitable Corvette could die along with a profitable Miata in place of a CUV. If both cars are profitable and support the brand image then they will be made. My point is that a cheaper and lighter car can be profitable and desirable.

For Lotus, they just don’t have the brand production volume to keep costs down. They try to compete with arguably better cars at the same price, and I don’t think it will be a successful strategy when they get closer and closer to those cars in weight and away from their identity or what differentiates them in the market.

On the side note of the turbo 86: the car could be made, but it is purposely not made. If Subaru can sell the larger WRX with a turbo and AWD for less than $30k or the Civic SI or Golf STI could have a turbo then so could the 86. It is just propoganda. Development cost would go up, and Subaru might not allow a turbo competitor, and Toyota does want a Supra competitor or to not have a NA sporty car in their lineup.

The Ariel Atom isn’t a good comparison. The CTR has the same engine, but costs less than half the price. The 2.0T Supra is a premium sporty car for $43k. The 2.0T Mustang is an economy sporty car for $28k. The more premium 2.0T Cayman is $60k. There is room for Lotus in there.

What Lotus should do is make a premium super/turbocharged Miata with aero that is MR. Undercut their competitors with price, weight and amenities in favor of handling, engagement/feel and better performance. If they try to compete with big manufacturers then they will be lost in the white noise and lose to better products at a better price.

[Irace86.2.0]

Oh and people would buy it if it was a 300hp MR Miata over a Supra or Corvette that was heavier and more expensive.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by Kiske

3100lbs in 2022 isn't a bad place to be. -If they deliver on their quality improvements. Definitely a, "Don't buy the first model year," type of car.

Miata RF Grand Touring 2500lbs
BRZ/GR86 2800lbs
Civic Type-R 3100lbs
Golf GTI-R 3100lbs
Emira 3100lbs
Cayman GTS 3200lbs
400z 3300lbs
A91 Supra/Z4 3400lbs
C8 Corvette 3400lbs
992 Carrera 4S 3500lbs
M2 Competition 3600lbs
Giulia Quadrifoglio 3800lbs
M3 Competition 3900lbs
RC-F Track Edition 3800lbs
Camaro ZL1 1LE 3900lbs
GT-R NISMO 3900lbs
Mustang GT500 4200lbs

You forgot one.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Oh and people would buy it if it was a 300hp MR Miata over a Supra or Corvette that was heavier and more expensive.

Nobody cares about weight expect some die hard enthusiast. It's almost as unimportant as steering feel or handling (except the later two are still mentioned by auto journalists).

The Miata is successful because of it's heritage and iconic status. I'm sure more than 90% of them are bought for being a cheap convertible and not for being a superb lightweight sports car. Same as 90% of Twins are bought as cheap coupes and not incredibly fun sports cars.

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

You forgot one.

Let's not get started with ultra-low-volume sports cars. Plus most people look for some form of head covering for their street cars. And no, a baseball cap doesn't count.

Edit: nevermind about the roof comment (although plenty of those ultra-low-volume sports cars are track oriented and don't have roofs), as it does have a coupe version.

[serialk11r]

The Miata probably loses money and the sales aren't great.

I think Alfa made the best effort at an Elise replacement with the 4C, but no manual trans is a dealbreaker for me. It's kind of a shame because DCTs are heavy, they probably could shed 50lbs with a manual trans. I'm not a fan of turbos but engines can be modified so that aspect was not a dealbreaker.

[Kiske]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

You forgot one.

When you can easily get one and drive it in the states as a production car, I'll add it. It can be done- yes but, not in a mass market for 100k or less.



Adding a car that has less than 500 examples built since 2016 and and less than 10 over 5 years in the states also doesn't appeal to my list. I'd soon add the Ariel Atom before the Design 1 based off production.

[TommyW]

May look into it. 400hp Toyota powerplant with a manual.....