FRS vs 50k Lexus

[DarkSunrise]

A Lexus is just a different car with a different purpose. My other car is a GTI and while it's numb as novacane compared to the FR-S, I find it better for certain things (road trips, Home Depot runs, airport pickups, carrying passengers, etc.) Don't get me wrong - I love driving the FR-S, but it's definitely not the perfect tool for every occasion.

I was actually thinking of replacing the GTI with a Lexus in a few years. Probably an RX350 (or possibly an Audi Q5). Something to eat up the miles and haul kids around. FR-S for track days and weekends.

[Shinigami301]

Originally Posted by FX86

the fr-s feels like luxury compared to commuting on a motorcycle everyday

you luxury car owners have it really good

I never thought of that. Riding a motorcycle is a choice for most in the first world, I imagine if it's one's only transportation due to circumstances, then yes, even an econobox would seem luxurious.

[Calavera]

I own a RC F and a monogram FR-S. Really two different animals. The manual tranny makes the 86 just more fun for me. Just hate when cars want to race me in the 86 and I never get the same douches try that when I'm driving the RC F.


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[UFO]

I went German instead of Japanese and have a '14 S4. If you were a passenger in both cars you would wonder why I have the FR-S because being in the S4 is a much, much nicer place to be. The interior is beautiful in the S4, the fit and finish is impeccable, and the material quality is high end, it's a complete contrast to the toy plastic rattle trap that the FR-S is. From the outside the S4 is handsome too, it is refined and has some sexy lines IMHO. The DCT in the S4 is also one of the most amazing transmissions I've used; never thought I'd own another 'automatic' car but this transmission blew me away.

So, why bother with the FR-S then, right? The S4 is numb, there's so little feedback through the steering that you sometimes feel more like a passenger than a driver. She's quick, yes, she also handles well but I've never driven the car with a big smile on my face. The FR-S, on the other hand, never fails to put a smile on my face but I'd hate to be sat in traffic in it every day!

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

We are lucky that our cars have a Subaru DNA

I now drive a normal version Impreza, and I'm convinced that Subaru can only build a great handling chassis with Toyota holding a gun to their heads.

Seriously, this thing is worse than a 6yr old Civic we bought for my in laws.

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[DaJo]

Both have their pros and cons... They're both completely different cars for different purposes. Can't compare.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by daiheadjai

I now drive a normal version Impreza, and I'm convinced that Subaru can only build a great handling chassis with Toyota holding a gun to their heads.

Seriously, this thing is worse than a 6yr old Civic we bought for my in laws.

The basic version Impreza is not supposed to be a sports car like the wrx or the sti. By the way, is the impreza a new one or the previous model?

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

The basic version Impreza is not supposed to be a sports car like the wrx or the sti. By the way, is the impreza a new one or the previous model?

The new one. I was actually surprised - it felt more like my wife's old Elantra (but the price was right, so oh well...).

But here's the rub: I actually test drove the WRX as well, and came away thoroughly unimpressed with the handling chops.
Shifter also felt much worse than the BRZ - even though on paper, the WRX blows away the BRZ in terms of damn near everything (value, performance, practicality, etc.) I couldn't convince myself to get it.

That being said, everyone who's driven the old WRX/STis and the new, seem to say that Subaru took the handling game up a big notch with this latest generation, so I think they're applying what they learned from the BRZ to the rest of the lineup.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by daiheadjai

The new one. I was actually surprised - it felt more like my wife's old Elantra (but the price was right, so oh well...).

But here's the rub: I actually test drove the WRX as well, and came away thoroughly unimpressed with the handling chops.
Shifter also felt much worse than the BRZ - even though on paper, the WRX blows away the BRZ in terms of damn near everything (value, performance, practicality, etc.) I couldn't convince myself to get it.

That being said, everyone who's driven the old WRX/STis and the new, seem to say that Subaru took the handling game up a big notch with this latest generation, so I think they're applying what they learned from the BRZ to the rest of the lineup.

In fact it is the other way around. Back in '06, Subaru had some great handling cars. Then Toyota did the first internal changes in directors and managers and then Subaru started changing direction. Models '07-'11 were much worse in handling and they were focused entirely for the U.S. market, which wanted bigger cars and in general soft roaders. Unfortunately, these cars were so soft that even the U.S. customers started complaining. Anyway, this is a bit of the story. The truth is that Toyota was many years out of the sports car business and they couldn't design the BRZ themselves. At least they couldn't without investing a considerable effort (cost) and time. Subaru on the other hand had the know-how and they used the BRZ project as an opportunity to correct the mistakes of the past. I believe Toyota should be credited for the changes in Subaru's NA engine basically to achieve some consumption and emission targets (thanks they had the experience from the LFA project), the overall design and the transmission of the car (differential & gear box). The rest of the car is entirely Subaru. Don't forget that the first BRZ prototype was a modified rear-wheel impreza.

[Quentin]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

In fact it is the other way around. Back in '06, Subaru had some great handling cars. Then Toyota did the first internal changes in directors and managers and then Subaru started changing direction. Models '07-'11 were much worse in handling and they were focused entirely for the U.S. market, which wanted bigger cars and in general soft roaders. Unfortunately, these cars were so soft that even the U.S. customers started complaining. Anyway, this is a bit of the story. The truth is that Toyota was many years out of the sports car business and they couldn't design the BRZ themselves. At least they couldn't without investing a considerable effort (cost) and time. Subaru on the other hand had the know-how and they used the BRZ project as an opportunity to correct the mistakes of the past. I believe Toyota should be credited for the changes in Subaru's NA engine basically to achieve some consumption and emission targets (thanks they had the experience from the LFA project), the overall design and the transmission of the car (differential & gear box). The rest of the car is entirely Subaru. Don't forget that the first BRZ prototype was a modified rear-wheel impreza.

It was a modified Legacy that was chopped up to be RWD.

Honestly, Subarus have been under steering plow machines since back in the GC8 days if you are talking about factory setup. I've been driving them since 1999 and only the 2015 seemed to rotate a little bit without fighting it, but that is largely because of the ECU applying the brakes more heavily to one side to initiate rotation.

Please show citations that Toyota (a company with less than 20% share of FHI) had any power to change the direction of Subaru's WRX/STI cars.


Sent from Tandy 400

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by daiheadjai

I now drive a normal version Impreza, and I'm convinced that Subaru can only build a great handling chassis with Toyota holding a gun to their heads.

Seriously, this thing is worse than a 6yr old Civic we bought for my in laws.

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That can't be good since I've driven a 2007 Civic sedan a few times and the steering felt worse than a Sega Outrun arcade machine from the 80's, and the late 90's Civic sedan was a much more connected car in comparison.

I've also driven mid 90's Camry, Lexus RX300, ES330 and IS250. They do absolutely nothing for me, just a really comfortable fast rolling couch. Everything from the soft pedals to the light steering wheel felt ridiculously artificial.

[daiheadjai]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

In fact it is the other way around. Back in '06, Subaru had some great handling cars. Then Toyota did the first internal changes in directors and managers and then Subaru started changing direction. Models '07-'11 were much worse in handling and they were focused entirely for the U.S. market, which wanted bigger cars and in general soft roaders. Unfortunately, these cars were so soft that even the U.S. customers started complaining. Anyway, this is a bit of the story. The truth is that Toyota was many years out of the sports car business and they couldn't design the BRZ themselves. At least they couldn't without investing a considerable effort (cost) and time. Subaru on the other hand had the know-how and they used the BRZ project as an opportunity to correct the mistakes of the past. I believe Toyota should be credited for the changes in Subaru's NA engine basically to achieve some consumption and emission targets (thanks they had the experience from the LFA project), the overall design and the transmission of the car (differential & gear box). The rest of the car is entirely Subaru. Don't forget that the first BRZ prototype was a modified rear-wheel impreza.

I think @Quentin provides a pretty good summary of the situation.
Although Subaru stamps their name everywhere in the car, the conventional version of events is that Toyota (and Tada) had to make their own chopped Impreza mule to overcome Subaru's skepticism for a RWD coupe.
This proof-of-concept from Toyota engineers was good enough to convince the Subaru guys that maybe a RWD, N/A coupe could fly (previously, the mindset seemed fixated on AWD/Turbocharged).

From what I've heard, even as far back as the bugeye, WRXs were notorious for their understeer.

Not to turn this into a Toyota vs Subaru thing, but despite Subaru's rally pedigree, Toyota has been involved in a much wider range of racing ventures (some of them, successfully!), such as JGTC, CART/Indy, NASCAR, WRC, Le Mans (we'll ignore F1).

Originally Posted by krayzie

That can't be good since I've driven a 2007 Civic sedan a few times and the steering felt worse than a Sega Outrun arcade machine from the 80's, and the late 90's Civic sedan was a much more connected car in comparison.

I've also driven mid 90's Camry, Lexus RX300, ES330 and IS250. They do absolutely nothing for me, just a really comfortable fast rolling couch. Everything from the soft pedals to the light steering wheel felt ridiculously artificial.

I won't say much about the gearbox (since I got the CVT for my non-M/T driving wife), except that it sucks - it really takes a good second of pedal-to-the-metal flooring for it to kick down and give you power (passing and merging has never been this exciting, and not in a good way).

Steering feel would be terrible - if it existed. My laptop trackpad gives better feedback (the lack of feel and seemingly-overboosted rack means abrupt, herky-jerky outputs even for the most minute amounts of input).

I'm on the 15s (again, driving the basic/stripper model) so it doesn't take much to make it push and wallow (my wife commented that it seemed more like a boat than a car). I really need to get into something sporty again, fast!

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Quentin

It was a modified Legacy that was chopped up to be RWD.

Honestly, Subarus have been under steering plow machines since back in the GC8 days if you are talking about factory setup. I've been driving them since 1999 and only the 2015 seemed to rotate a little bit without fighting it, but that is largely because of the ECU applying the brakes more heavily to one side to initiate rotation.

Please show citations that Toyota (a company with less than 20% share of FHI) had any power to change the direction of Subaru's WRX/STI cars.


Sent from Tandy 400

Yes the first prototype was a rear-wheel white legacy. The later prototypes were rear-wheel black Imprezas. You can see the prototypes here: http://subaru.co.uk/vehicles/brz/brz-history/

The under steering nature of Subaru's is basically because of the AWD, but I wasn't referring on this aspect. I was referring basically on the very soft suspension setting of the previous generation. It could be fixed with a few changes and STI knew how to do it. Again don't think about the WRX STI model, which is basically a trim level for the U.S. market. We are talking here about a few limited production cars modified by the actual STI team in Japan and a few cars modified for racing.

I don't have evidence about the Toyota changes. I heard it once by a guy who was close to Toyota sources. Fact is that Subaru was an old fashioned Japanese company with engineers and not sales people in their management board. The things started changing when Toyota bought a big package of Subaru shares. A less than 20% package of FHI shares might not sound that much, but if you are the biggest shareholder you can have an influence and make internal changes (for the best or the worst ...).

[krayzie]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I don't have evidence about the Toyota changes. I heard it once by a guy who was close to Toyota sources. Fact is that Subaru was an old fashioned Japanese company with engineers and not sales people in their management board. The things started changing when Toyota bought a big package of Subaru shares. A less than 20% package of FHI shares might not sound that much, but if you are the biggest shareholder you can have an influence and make internal changes (for the best or the worst ...).

Likewise when Nissan was the largest shareholder in FHI, they had a Nissan top brass running Subaru.

This Toyota influence is quite believable, I mean just take a look at the smaller JDM rebadged models they now have across Subaru, Toyota, and Daihatsu. The Impreza since 2007 looks and feels pretty much like an AWD Corolla, and most of the old Subaru unique design elements since the first Legacy are pretty much gone. I think it's quite ironic that once the Subaru line-up became boring and got slotted in-between the Toyota and Lexus brands, they then started to make real money.