How Does the Alfa 4C Stack Up Against the Toyota GT 86 / Scion FR-S & Porsche Cayman?

[acg2010]

I have no idea about fatoni's claims, but a simple google of fastest miata buttonwillow shows up this video at 1:54. No idea if its actually the fastest or what the details are as I haven't watched it past the first 2 seconds:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzIh67OSROQ"]1:54 lap Buttonwillow 13CW Miata - YouTube[/ame]

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i was talking about a new miata. i guess if the prices of the frs have dropped it might not work but at the time of my purchase, you could get a supercharged miata with intake, full exhaust, clutch, shocks, springs, sways and a roll bar for about 27. it might not be the case now but you can still take a new miata a lot faster than a stock twin.

you can definitely buy a stock car for cheaper than the frs that will be faster but with the miata, you also get to check the more reliable and more fun boxes and still have some change.

The FR-S is already cheaper to begin with. Truecar lists the average price paid for a Miata club (lowest trim with standard LSD) at $26,599. The average price paid for an FR-S (with standard LSD) is $25,300. I'm not sure how you would add all those mods (esp the supercharger, clutch and rollbar) into the equation and keep the price of the Miata below $27k, but no matter what you do, it'll cost more than a new FR-S.

Fun to drive is subjective, but in my experience (and I've had the chance to drive a stock NC Miata quite often), in stock trim the FR-S is more fun at the track (or anytime pushed above 7/10ths) due to a suspension with much better body control. Modded vs. modded is anyone's game.

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by acg2010

I have no idea about fatoni's claims, but a simple google of fastest miata buttonwillow shows up this video at 1:54. No idea if its actually the fastest or what the details are as I haven't watched it past the first 2 seconds:

No it didn't when I or others searched. No it isn't the fastest anymore nor is it even relevant if you read the thread. The discussion has since moved on to the topic at hand.

I'm also sure that 270hp Goodwin on slicks running a sub minute horse thief isn't on stock suspension or unmodded chassis either but I digress.

Personally, I don't consider the FRS my 'fast' car and it was NOT purchased to be. I got sick of my 3500lb AWD turbo for my DD style and preferences. Just too boring. FRS is what I use for MPG and hauling stuff at the minimum amount of handling and braking performance I expect in a DD. That's it. However, the high speed stability, aero efficiency and high cornering speeds have been superb. Performance wise nothing in the same price does as well in those areas either without the other combination of factors the FRS does well. The amount of high speed I can sustain on both on and off ramps with a composed yawn is phenomenal for the price. Slices through air like butter and feels planted like a fan car (a little hyperbole there). It doesn't even break a sweat. Plus with only two chassis mods, it feels more solid than any German car I've driven. Taut and tight like a billet slug. For the price it's a pretty cool car.

I did have the Alfa 4C in my sights but as the word has come that the US model will push 2450-2650lbs I have said no effing way to that. That was going to be my next MR, probably just do a Mono instead.

[Celica00]

Originally Posted by fatoni

yeah well neither the elise or mr2 are new so i thought we threw that criteria out the window. goodwin racing did a sub minute horsethief lap so i dont think the new miata has crap suspension. if anything, its better inherently than the frs.

dont get me wrong, i adore what the mr2 and elise are about. every time i drive my friends 2zz swap, i kinda wish i bought it when he was having trouble with smog instead of the brz. my only point was that the miata will take you very far and there is a real reason that it is the most raced car in the world.

thank you so much fatoni! i'm so happy youre stilling ruining every FRS thread since 2011. I know I can always count on you.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by suaveflooder

I'm honestly waiting for ANY video with good tires on the 86! Why do they always track it on crappy eco tires and then compare it to cars that come factory with better rubber?

A while back a magazine put better tires on a BRZ/FR-S, a Mustang V6 and a BMW and tested them. The Mustang still beat the twin around the track so the tires are not necessarily the twin's kryptonite. I love the twins but I get annoyed when claims are constantly made that every road test is flawed because the twins have terrible tires.

Google search for the video. I am sure it is still out there.

[Ganthrithor]

Should have compared an Elise or Exige instead of the 86. Sorry, but neither a new Cayman nor a new Alfa 4c belongs in any mashup with an 86 variant... they're just not in the same category of car. I'd have been way more interested to see how they'd compare the Alfa to a Lotus, since they're obviously similar cars in many respects (although my toy car money would definitely go in the British direction).

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by Rampage

A while back a magazine put better tires on a BRZ/FR-S, a Mustang V6 and a BMW and tested them. The Mustang still beat the twin around the track so the tires are not necessarily the twin's kryptonite. I love the twins but I get annoyed when claims are constantly made that every road test is flawed because the twins have terrible tires.

Google search for the video. I am sure it is still out there.

It was Motortrend. IT was a BS test because they used different wheels and tires for each car. It was basically a marketing video. The BRZ picks up 2 seconds on the RnT video until they lose 7/10ths by plus sizing which ruined the gear ratios making the car slower. If the package is bigger and weighs more, the Mustang is better suited to actually using it because it has more power and cylinders to take advantgae of more traction. It would have also been better to get different sector times on the MT video to see differences between uphill and downhill performance.

That's the same crew that also got 1 sec less on SoW w/ the BRZ compared to the V6 Stang. Then when comparing the Fiesta ST they admitted to having been faster than the V6 Stang using the FRS. Go figure. None of these tests are definitive at revealing anything except pandering to youtube hits.

If you look at slalom times and skidpad #'s, better tires do show quite obviously on the ZN6 platform massive improvement. It just needs power to use it. Without the power, it can't generate the speed to push the tires and chassis.

[E.T]

Im excited to see a 4c on the street.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

It was Motortrend. IT was a BS test because they used different wheels and tires for each car. It was basically a marketing video. The BRZ picks up 2 seconds on the RnT video until they lose 7/10ths by plus sizing which ruined the gear ratios making the car slower. If the package is bigger and weighs more, the Mustang is better suited to actually using it because it has more power and cylinders to take advantgae of more traction. It would have also been better to get different sector times on the MT video to see differences between uphill and downhill performance.

That's the same crew that also got 1 sec less on SoW w/ the BRZ compared to the V6 Stang. Then when comparing the Fiesta ST they admitted to having been faster than the V6 Stang using the FRS. Go figure. None of these tests are definitive at revealing anything except pandering to youtube hits.

If you look at slalom times and skidpad #'s, better tires do show quite obviously on the ZN6 platform massive improvement. It just needs power to use it. Without the power, it can't generate the speed to push the tires and chassis.

i think the issue is that people overestimate how handicapped the frs is by tires. that test proved that tires is holding back its competition by at least as much as the frs. power is important and many people on this forum refuse to believe that. marketing video or not, the frs went from the worst tire in the video to the best yet showed the least gains. we can talk about the pros and cons of the twins plattform but it shows that tires dont change the frs into the car that people insist it is.

i just find it a bit strange that people cant accept the car for what it is.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

The FR-S is already cheaper to begin with. Truecar lists the average price paid for a Miata club (lowest trim with standard LSD) at $26,599. The average price paid for an FR-S (with standard LSD) is $25,300. I'm not sure how you would add all those mods (esp the supercharger, clutch and rollbar) into the equation and keep the price of the Miata below $27k, but no matter what you do, it'll cost more than a new FR-S.

Fun to drive is subjective, but in my experience (and I've had the chance to drive a stock NC Miata quite often), in stock trim the FR-S is more fun at the track (or anytime pushed above 7/10ths) due to a suspension with much better body control. Modded vs. modded is anyone's game.

i was checking 2013 values and i used the base miata. like i said, i dont know if the market has changed. either way, i think we agree that diminishing returns works on both sides of the frs.

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i think the issue is that people overestimate how handicapped the frs is by tires. that test proved that tires is holding back its competition by at least as much as the frs. power is important and many people on this forum refuse to believe that. marketing video or not, the frs went from the worst tire in the video to the best yet showed the least gains. we can talk about the pros and cons of the twins plattform but it shows that tires dont change the frs into the car that people insist it is.

i just find it a bit strange that people cant accept the car for what it is.

It is certainly a more complicated question when looking at tires/chassis issues. The benefit will clearly manifest itself in slalom type events and perhaps auto-x. Obviously if a magazine is out there drifting the BRZ/FRS around a track for a review, a new set of rubber should help lay down a better time. On SoW w/ Motortrend, they didn't seem to have issues w/ oversteer like they did w/ the FRS, likely due to more neutral behavior of the BRZ, so who knows what differences if any would show up on the FRS in the same hands. The brakes might be a big problem too, the stock units don't perform that well even on stock tires let alone upgraded tire compound.

What irks me is the Tire Rack/MT experiment where they put Michelin PSS on the Stang which weigh the same as the stock Primacy, yet put RE11A on the BRZ which is 4lbs/corner more. They gave the car w/ less cylinders and torque 16lbs more rotational mass than the other. And 5 different rims? I mean come on. And what's wrong w/ using Buttonwillow? Less elevation change and more speed. Btw, it did improve even w/ the heavier tires more than the BMW so it didn't see the least gain as you said.

I'm pretty happy that a new set of wheels and street tires can take a stock BRZ/FRS to 71.2mph and 0.96g. Those are very good numbers that are useful and noticeable on the street, and comparable to some much more expensive cars on RnT's data logs. If that's not translating into better track times than I expect, find out where the actual problem is.

Anyone expecting slicks on a BRZ/FRS w/ 150lbft @ 2750lbs to pick up 10-15 secs a lap w/o doing anything else is obviously misguided. Cars are complete systems and everything needs to be balanced together.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Boxer486

It is certainly a more complicated question when looking at tires/chassis issues. The benefit will clearly manifest itself in slalom type events and perhaps auto-x. Obviously if a magazine is out there drifting the BRZ/FRS around a track for a review, a new set of rubber should help lay down a better time. On SoW w/ Motortrend, they didn't seem to have issues w/ oversteer like they did w/ the FRS, likely due to more neutral behavior of the BRZ, so who knows what differences if any would show up on the FRS in the same hands. The brakes might be a big problem too, the stock units don't perform that well even on stock tires let alone upgraded tire compound.

What irks me is the Tire Rack/MT experiment where they put Michelin PSS on the Stang which weigh the same as the stock Primacy, yet put RE11A on the BRZ which is 4lbs/corner more. They gave the car w/ less cylinders and torque 16lbs more rotational mass than the other. And 5 different rims? I mean come on. And what's wrong w/ using Buttonwillow? Less elevation change and more speed. Btw, it did improve even w/ the heavier tires more than the BMW so it didn't see the least gain as you said.

I'm pretty happy that a new set of wheels and street tires can take a stock BRZ/FRS to 71.2mph and 0.96g. Those are very good numbers that are useful and noticeable on the street, and comparable to some much more expensive cars on RnT's data logs. If that's not translating into better track times than I expect, find out where the actual problem is.

Anyone expecting slicks on a BRZ/FRS w/ 150lbft @ 2750lbs to pick up 10-15 secs a lap w/o doing anything else is obviously misguided. Cars are complete systems and everything needs to be balanced together.

i would have to put the re11 ahead of the pss in performance, there isnt directly observed data in the video so i see where youre coming from. i have no problems with buttonwillow. they go to streets a lot and im not sure why but if i had to speculate, it would be because its probably the best track for eliminating power from the equation. it could also be because they are still a business and have to live within their means. again, i dont have any problems with the twins (well i do but its really besides the point and nitpiciking) but like it or not its an overhyped car and i think the miata is an underrated car.

[suaveflooder]

Originally Posted by Rampage

A while back a magazine put better tires on a BRZ/FR-S, a Mustang V6 and a BMW and tested them. The Mustang still beat the twin around the track so the tires are not necessarily the twin's kryptonite. I love the twins but I get annoyed when claims are constantly made that every road test is flawed because the twins have terrible tires.

Google search for the video. I am sure it is still out there.

Thanks for your post! I'm honestly not too worried about track times with the twins, and the newer mustangs are a hell of a car in any trim. What makes me shake my head is seeing videos like this where the 86 is rarely NOT in a tail slide. Tires won't fix all of it, but a majority of it. Also, I'm not one who thinks that the tires are gonna make it competitive with the cayman, but the entirety of the track time in that video was pretty much drifting the 86.

Old video, but a good one talking about the difference between tires. Shaving 2+ seconds off your lap time in this case from a tire swap only is a good thing in my book!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_IWa_qlt3g"]2013 Scion FR-S - YouTube[/ame]

[suaveflooder]

Originally Posted by Rampage

A while back a magazine put better tires on a BRZ/FR-S, a Mustang V6 and a BMW and tested them. The Mustang still beat the twin around the track so the tires are not necessarily the twin's kryptonite. I love the twins but I get annoyed when claims are constantly made that every road test is flawed because the twins have terrible tires.

Google search for the video. I am sure it is still out there.

Found your video. The Mustang has 105 horse power MORE, and only got 1.1 SECONDS faster than the 86. Also, it sounds like Pobst preferred the 86 to the mustang quite a bit and that the tires made a HUGE difference to the performance of the 86. Kryptonite, perhaps not, but I'm going to hold on to what I said before. Take off the crappy eco tires and even put a decent performance tire on the car and it will compete much better and be a better behaved car on the track overall. Throwing a eco tire with almost zero grip under hard cornering against cars that come from the factory with better tires isn't a fair comparison IMHO (Mustang did seem pretty fair in the video below). Looking around the internet a bit looks like most of the Caymans came with PS2's from the factory…

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSqWD5BSeoY"]Testing Tires with Subaru BRZ, Ford Mustang & BMW 328i! The Downshift Ep. 65 - YouTube[/ame]

I would be interested to see times if they rant the same tires for each step on all three cars, finishing with the PSS on all the cars.