Who is happy the engine will be Naturally Aspirated?

[jonnyozero3]

Originally Posted by Tbomb 25

This is what i was talking about as far as being rediculous goes....people like this will turn this car community to 1 of the hated 1's....think SRT4....

+1

Some people's kids...

Edit - the immaturity displayed around this forum and the overall inability for most to understand and discuss another's viewpoints merits counter to their own is....disappointing. You can tell it's a new forum, most of the other forums I've been on would be mercilessly banning with abandon folks for crap like this. What fun is a forum if the only post allowed is, "ZOMG BRZ RULZ!"? What the shit is the point of even having a forum then?

Coming to this website is like going to church...there's only one party line to speak to, don't deviate or you'll be ostracized.

[jonnyozero3]

Originally Posted by AshWilliams

To reiterate, because I may not be clear. I want to love this car, but I already hate the engine.

You're not alone. :happy0180:

So much potential in this design focus/methodology. Can't wait to see if they realize it....I wonder if a Boxster flat six could fit in there, hehe. Crazy talk, but fun idea nonetheless.

[MtnDrvr86]

Originally Posted by Exhaust

162. Lets race.

All joking aside i'll keep my FRS N/A and track it until i get comfortable and feel like ive perfected it as is stock. Meanwhile ill just save my money and splurge where i see fit, from what ive read SC is the way to go vs Turbo (headache wise) and HKS seems very promising but i'll have to wait to see what becomes available. I wont be buying for another year anyway, so i have plenty of time to wait.

thats exactly my mentality going into it. build it up over time when I get better

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I disagree with people who say the car should not have a higher power engine option. It definitely should, it's always better for the consumer and manufacturer if they have more options for different kinds of people.

A higher power version gives the car more prestige (which matters to people who drop this sort of money, don't deny it), more performance, and allows Subaru to compete in the "mid performance coupe" market.

It's not fair to tell AshWilliams that he should just go learn how to tune an engine and bolt on his own mods and build his own engine, but on the other hand, it's ridiculous that AshWilliams is complaining about how Subaru isn't releasing a car that suits his own needs right now. If it makes economic sense, they'll make a more upmarket version with more power, no reason to bitch that it's not arriving on release. The platform was meant to be low cost, a good place to start, and they're testing the waters right now, in a market where sports cars have been selling poorly for the past few years.

Oh i totally agree, options are great! But I also like how Toyota/Subaru is doing it...releasing this version then eventually adding more power/re-tuning the car. Gives us that want a basic sports car a chance to get one and enjoy our cars, and gives the group thats wants more power the option of getting now and building or waiting getting one build from the factory. Not to mention more time to save more to finance less. just my opinion so take it at face value. Im not trying to force anything down anyone's throat one way or another

[Exhaust]

I can see why people hate the performance of this engine stock due to price but why? From what ive read this car has plenty of room for customization/upgrades. So basically everything comes down to this, you can pony up and drop the money to get the equivalent to a high performance sports car of your dreams (if not close enough if you want Ferrari performance keep dreaming) OR you can be conservative and leave the car as is and enjoy it as a "Pure" sports car N/A. Ofcourse the argument goes to say "why not buy a better car?" because this is a TUNER car, whats the fun in tuning if everything is already done for you? Just my two cents...

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

I disagree with people who say the car should not have a higher power engine option. It definitely should, it's always better for the consumer and manufacturer if they have more options for different kinds of people.

A higher power version gives the car more prestige (which matters to people who drop this sort of money, don't deny it), more performance, and allows Subaru to compete in the "mid performance coupe" market.

It's not fair to tell AshWilliams that he should just go learn how to tune an engine and bolt on his own mods and build his own engine, but on the other hand, it's ridiculous that AshWilliams is complaining about how Subaru isn't releasing a car that suits his own needs right now. If it makes economic sense, they'll make a more upmarket version with more power, no reason to bitch that it's not arriving on release. The platform was meant to be low cost, a good place to start, and they're testing the waters right now, in a market where sports cars have been selling poorly for the past few years.

Part of the issue is the higher power sports coupe market is pretty glutted with GenCoupe, Z, Mustang, Camaro, BMW offerings...

They're playing a bit safe market-wise with the 4 cylinder. Forcing handling comparisons rather than power ones. Plus Subaru not wanting to upstage the WRX.

[serialk11r]

The high power sport coupe market has a lot of offerings, but it's missing the S2000 sort of car, which definitely has a place in the market imo. Of course that call is for the manufacturers to make, and if they don't agree, then we'll just have to mod the hell out of these BRZs if we want more power.

WRX is a much bigger car for people who need a car that will do everything, if I'm not mistaken. It's also somewhat of a performance bargain having so much power and grip at 26k, while being a sedan. Doesn't really match the BRZ demographic.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

The high power sport coupe market has a lot of offerings, but it's missing the S2000 sort of car, which definitely has a place in the market imo. Of course that call is for the manufacturers to make, and if they don't agree, then we'll just have to mod the hell out of these BRZs if we want more power.

WRX is a much bigger car for people who need a car that will do everything, if I'm not mistaken. It's also somewhat of a performance bargain having so much power and grip at 26k, while being a sedan. Doesn't really match the BRZ demographic.

We will see. I think both companies are still nervous as hell, despite the hype. Toe in the water right now. If it feels good hopefully at least one will jump in. This is a very different market for both of them (at least recently for Toyota) and they will still be conservative despite the initial passionate risk.

[old greg]

Originally Posted by jonnyozero3

Coming to this website is like going to church...there's only one party line to speak to, don't deviate or you'll be ostracized.

People get ostracized not for deviating from the party line but because nobody likes a whiner.

Would I have liked 250 hp? Absolutely.
Did I want it to weigh 2500lbs? Very much so.
Would I have preferred that the Scion, as-is, had been ~$23K? Definitely.

Do I bitch and moan because Subaru/Toyota haven't provided those things?

No.

[mrtodd]

Originally Posted by old greg

People get ostracized not for deviating from the party line but because nobody likes a whiner.

Would I have liked 250 hp? Absolutely.
Did I want it to weigh 2500lbs? Very much so.
Would I have preferred that the Scion, as-is, had been ~$23K? Definitely.

Do I bitch and moan because Subaru/Toyota haven't provided those things?

No.

Thank you.

[Levi]

Funny so muny are crying for more power, when in fact all they want is torque.

I for one want only power to make this b*tch sream day and night. I don't care about diesel kick in the *ss.

[KeepGuessing]

Lol WOW, this board came a LOOOONG way since my last trip here. Last time I was here the "solid numbers" were just starting to surface and the doubts started to rise. I mentioned my skepticism and was met with a torrent of bull headed blindness, was called a troll etc etc so i left. I come back now that the numbers ARE here and people ARE coming to grasp the d fact that this car is anything but the second coming of Christ and really IS just "Another option in this price bracket with no REAL strong motivator behind it and a muuuch darker place.

But let me touc base here with some posts..

Originally Posted by mrtodd

First - to make your car different than all the others on the road, all while costing less than the car you mentioned.

Will your car be different from the other BRZ's/FRS's it sure as heck will, but you're absolutely disillusion if you think the end result will total less than a WRX out the door. Even with the WRX's current ~5,000 dollar markup over MSRP your still going to be spending much less money on the WRX than you would boosting your BRZ from scratch. I'm assuming you haven't put together your own turbocharger system or you would realize those "3,000-4,000" dollar turbo builds are almost NEVER 3000-4000 dollars...If they come CLOSE to those figures it's ALWAYS because they are turbocharging a platform that has been around for ages and ages and has been done so many times you could find cliff notes on how to turbocharge that car and that engine at a elementary school library.

Factor in the turbocharger, the charge pipe, the exhaust manifold, the exhaust tubing, the metal work from drilling mounting, welding bungs, the oil lines, the inter-cooler, the couplings, the dump tubing, the blow off valve, the waste gate, the controller, the various catch cans here and there to keep your system gunk free, then there's the engine internals that will likely have to be tweaked to keep everything from having tolerances tighter than that of a space shuttle like a tear down to see what the ring lands look like, are they meaty or flimsy? is the powder cast piston sturdy enough to handle ANYTHING or was it designed with lightweight revving in mind and waiting on the right temp fire to melt a hole in it. Will you shove a MLS in the head, will the stock studs/bolts meet the parameters, will those settings be screwed up by using OEM head hardware because no one makes aviation grade studs etc etc.

And that isn't even ventured down the long arduous task of fuel management/engine management and tuning.

Will the EMU allow for piggyback programming? will you need a stand alone just to make use of it? will your car even RUN without the EMU or is this some great security system that will cut off the electrical start signal from the ignition if it's not in factory condition?
Will the emu throw codes for no reason other than to give you a hard time

etc etc.

I couldn't care less about a warranty. I've built plenty of engines for performance reasons, i know what i'm getting into and i know the risks and how to steer clear of them. It sounds like you don't dare to get your hands dirty.

Building plenty of engines should have thought you at least these 2 things.
1. No two engine builds are the same. So pretending to have everything buttoned up and in the bag before anythings hit the shop floor is about as inappropriately boisterous as going into a church yelling about how many people you mowed down in some war.

2. There is a world of difference between building a performance engine from a power plant that is brand new to the tuning world and building a performance LSx, B Series, 302, EJ20, 4g63 etc etc.

If everything was as simple as that we'd have hundreds of 600-700HP genesis coupes running around from what people have learned from the 4B11T

Second - ground effects? ......really? It sounds like you are taking this rather personally. Throwing out infantile attacks like this make me lose respect for your stated opinions. Who says i'm even going to spend 10 grand in modifications? And why are you assuming i just HAVE to reach the coveted performance of the infamous WRX STi? I never compared this to any other car. Looks like you have your own performance insecurities. Leading up to my initial comment you've only complained about lacking engine performance - but now it seems like you're frantically throwing out other claims.. To answer your question, i can spend substantially less than 10 grand to get the engine performance I want out of this car, all while keeping it very reliable.

This entire statement contradicts the first statement:"to make your car different than all the others on the road, all while costing less than the car you mentioned"...

You talk of his "spending 10k on ground effects door stabilizers and wings" as a infantile insult, when in fact he is bringing up the EXACT same point you argued in favor of. "To make your car different from the rest

Putting a turbocharger system on the BRZ without any sort of "goal" in performance, or even a benchmark to shoot for (in the comparison no one wants to make) holds no more merit than putting fender flares wings blacked out lenses stretched tires and camber;camber;camber.

As for the last bit of the paragraph about spending less and getting the performance you want. NO, you cannot. You can no more say that about this car right now than he can say this car is destined for performance mediocrity. You don't know how reliable this car is to beNOWgin with, yet somehow you'll manage to make it as "fast as you want it to be all while maintaining reliability"... How fast do you want it? Do you have a first hand account on exactly what this car feels like on a track or other performance situation as it sits? No..So you don't know whether you'll need to spend 10 dollars or 10 thousand.

THEN to go on and talk about reliability on a BRAND new car with a BRAND new engine after you just completely dismissed the idea of keeping the warranty? That's the ramblings of someone who really doesn't value ANYTHING about a good performance vehicle...

Say what you want about this car and what it could do, but the fact remains..The people who produced the engine, Subaru...Fuji heavy.. They've produced "engine families" of this scale only ONE other time. This is a HUGE move for Subaru, to drop an engine lineup and make a new one. The LAST time they did this was over 2 DECADES ago, and for the entire FIRST decade after their engines had problem after problem after problem, it took them nearly 20 years to even ADMIT FAULT to their engines having reliability issues, but now you're going to jump headlong into their brand new engine, dismiss a warranty for no other reason than pride

Third - "the engine choice is deeply flawed".... How so? The more i read your responses the less it seems you've ever had any experience in engine modification/tuning.

So you've stated your opinion on him..Let's see how much of a grasp on engine tuning/modification YOU display after openly criticizing someone else simply based on their disagreement over an un-spoken for car.

In my opinion this engine is perfect. 86 mil bore and stroke with a very low center of gravity and direct injection with an extremely high compression ratio right out of the box?

..

You know what this says to me? This says to me you don't really understanding tuning but you're willing to read a press package as if it was the gospel.

"86 mil bore and stroke with a very low center of gravity!!" Wow!!! You know what that means to an experienced engine builder? Truly nothing. We're on a web site talking about a car we might lease/buy etc so we can put a couple grand into it to make it our own. What's not happening? We're not being given these cars to perform hundreds of thousands of dollars of R&D work, we're not going to use this car as the focal point of a potential million dollar racing campaign. We're not in the big leagues, so you know what the engines "low center of gravity" really means? it really means it'll have clearance issues with the parts we ad, and it'll be a tight fit for people with big hands to work underneath it. That's all. In the real world the center of gravity will account for nathan in the grand scheme of things. The ONLY reason it is getting the attention it is getting is because Toyota/Subaru TOLD you it was important. The use of engines as a pivot/anchor point in cars in the normal world has and will remain a practice used as a counterbalance, when the chassis/driveline has a fundamental flaw of some kind that can't be corrected via standard practices without overshooting the budget, you lower things to make the changes you already HAVE made or are going TO make more effective.. Lowering the CoG on a lincoln town car or Honda prelude doesn't turn it into some lucid beast of a track car.

This is a tuner's dream for inexpensive performance potential!

No....It's a salesmens dream for profit margins..

Direct injection + High compression means one thing. Tuning companies don't have to do any work to sell products...All they have to do is sell you a Flasher. Instead of them having to do work on new products for a new car, now they only have to sell you a small little black box that plugs into a diagnostic port and adjusts your fuel map...Instant profit margin jump for their company.

I've seen smaller, less sophisticated engines make well over 350 hp,

That's because they're smaller, and less sophisticated.

Less sophisticated engines = More material + Less moving parts

more Material = sturdier
Less moving parts = less sources for catastrophic failure.

There's a reason the BMW M10 produced ~1500HP in their turbo Formula 1 program. It's because it was a ridiculously simplistic engine design being force fed air. When you deal with simplicity your margin of error becomes nearly nonexistent. It becomes more of a unlikely probability over a risk.

In conclusion, Ash, it sounds to me like you're a kind of person who wants everything from the get go - and there's nothing wrong with that.

On the contrary..I believe Ash is the kind of person that would prefer a choice over no choice what so ever. His statements are pretty reflective of that.

It's quite cut and dry that from his POV he doesn't see a point in creating a car that is tapped out at a level that puts it "struggling" to keep up with the competition. That would be similar to BMW release a M3 that had problems beating accords...But because it "felt good" and had "nice seats" and magazines say we should love it, we shouldn't complain and be happy that we even got a bmw.

I for one think this car should have gone one of two ways..

1. They should have left more overhead...Drop the performance in favor of ACTUAL tuning ability, because right now this car is nothing but a 200HP Easter egg. it's done cooking and that's all it's ever going to be is a hardboiled egg, the only change that can happen is in the form of paint jewels and glitter....

or 2...They should have stopped telling people it was so focused on tuners and it'll do great in this market....and just shut up and let it speak for itself, because frankly they have overtalked this cars capability by a country mile.

[Kunzite]

Originally Posted by Tbomb 25

Are you high? Do you think it should be made to yours...and do you think im the only 1 that would want more power in this wonderful car?

Don't drink and drive, when you can smoke and fly!
You're missing something: the car is already made to my liking - or so it seems (not available for a test drive, probably in autumn ); why should be changed to yours? :p

Of course, I have absolutely nothing against a more powerful version; that would hopefully drive the price for the 200hp version down a little (~30k euro or higher, and US people are complaining about $25k...).

[blu_]

All the people that are mad about this should just shut up and not buy the car... It appears there are plenty of potential buyers out there who don't have a problem with the power output, which realistically is fine when compared to the cars target market/competition. If you want more power, there are plenty of cars out there for you.

That's my opinion, which will probably provoke another rant, but whatever.

[Crashoverride]

NA yeah I glad