Innovate/Spritex/Bullet... What I found searching the web.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

This power/weight ratio puts the car squarely in Mustang GT territory, and a torqueband to match.

Pretty impressive if you ask me.

Maybe with reduced weight. But I'm looking at how competitive this kit will be classing vs. other cars and if you take a look at speedventures.com, the Time Attack classing has this car sitting at Class 4-5 which is competing with the mighty e92 BMW m3...

FR-S BC 7

+5.0 points (supercharger)
+1.5 (Hancock RS3 or star specs tires)
+2.0 (coilovers)
=========
+8.5 CC 5

To compete with just a simple Mustang GT, we're looking at the following

Mustang GT BC 6

+1.5 (tires)
+1.5 (brakes)
+2.0 (coilovers)
=========
+5.0 CC 5


So, this kit is going to have to compete without weight reduction. I don't think that's going to work with the numbers here.

220whp = ~260 at the crank

With stock car weight of 2750 we have a power to weight ratio of 10.5 - a Mustang GT has a power to weight of 8.73 (~3600 curb weight and 414 bhp), a BMW M3 has a power to weight of 8.2 (~3400 curb weight and 414 bhp).

I just don't see how all that lines up, if we're talking competitive, within the same class. Now if we start taking weight away from the FR-S, add e85, it starts to look much better but that also puts the FR-S another class higher.

I'm shooting for at least 270whp. That would give us better power to weight than a Mustang GT & fancy pants BMW, and should give us a chance to be competitive with the big dogs (assuming supporting mods are done). So far only Vortech & turbo kits can achieve higher than that. But I'm holding out for innovate as I think it has a good shot.

Keep in mind, most of the small turbos are achieving torque curves matching (or better than) the dyno posted of Innovate. Now I give you, this is a great cheap easy to install kit, that gives somebody awesome drivability. But if I'm going forced induction, I'm looking at what's going to make this car competitive with the big dogs, otherwise I'll stay N/A

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

Wait, are you saying that an FA20 is more reliable with a non-intercooled supercharger than without? I'm confused. If you start with a weak substance, putting more stress on that substance would make it weaker, no? Unless Robi's motor is not stock? Don't mean to slight anyone, but this completely fails my logical test...


budi

His car has aftermarket cooling (coolant AND oil), and runs on E85. The stock car is undercooled from the factory for HARD driving.

We've already gone through two 100% stock engines with zero driving error, whereas Robi's car has been withstanding substantial abuse, even with the supercharger (and me driving). Testament to how well the setup works.

We're working on some solutions too; we're done with stock systems.

[Pete]

This kit is finally shaping up and it looks good! Can't wait to see the US pump gas dyno. Your video looked awesome robi, I admit I am a bit jealous of the low down torque.

I'd subscribe but I think I would just be drowning in emails pretty soon.

[buditjoenawan]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

His car has aftermarket cooling (coolant AND oil), and runs on E85. The stock car is undercooled from the factory for HARD driving.

We've already gone through two 100% stock engines with zero driving error, whereas Robi's car has been withstanding substantial abuse, even with the supercharger (and me driving). Testament to how well the setup works.

We're working on some solutions too; we're done with stock systems.

Ah, that clears it up. So if a stock motor had the same cooling solutions applied, then it'll be reliable under hard driving right? The supercharger isn't the reason for the increased durability which I read your initial comment to imply.

budi

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

220whp = ~260 at the crank

I just don't see how all that lines up, if we're talking competitive, within the same class. N

You keep missing the posts that remind you this is a Dyno Dynamics chart. It reads low. This 220 is in the range of 250 whp (7 psi intercooled pump gas) on a dynojet.

You are nearing 290 crank HP @ 7 psi. Upgrade your pulley to 10 psi and you are over 300 HP. I can't wait to see what people do with this kit once its out!

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by buditjoenawan

Ah, that clears it up. So if a stock motor had the same cooling solutions applied, then it'll be reliable under hard driving right? The supercharger isn't the reason for the increased durability which I read your initial comment to imply.

budi

Hopefully... especially since the stock engine was still within "safe" temperatures, albeit on the high end.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

You keep missing the posts that remind you this is a Dyno Dynamics chart. It reads low. This 220 is in the range of 250 whp (7 psi intercooled pump gas) on a dynojet.

You are nearing 290 crank HP @ 7 psi. Upgrade your pulley to 10 psi and you are over 300 HP. I can't wait to see what people do with this kit once its out!

I'm with @mines13, I just don't think this is getting 250whp stock.

I guess the only thing left to do is put aside the theorycrafting and wait it out for more dynos

[Draco-REX]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

Maybe with reduced weight. But I'm looking at how competitive this kit will be classing vs. other cars and if you take a look at speedventures.com, the Time Attack classing has this car sitting at Class 4-5 which is competing with the mighty e92 BMW m3...

FR-S BC 7

+5.0 points (supercharger)
+1.5 (Hancock RS3 or star specs tires)
+2.0 (coilovers)
=========
+8.5 CC 5

To compete with just a simple Mustang GT, we're looking at the following

Mustang GT BC 6

+1.5 (tires)
+1.5 (brakes)
+2.0 (coilovers)
=========
+5.0 CC 5


So, this kit is going to have to compete without weight reduction. I don't think that's going to work with the numbers here.

220whp = ~260 at the crank

With stock car weight of 2750 we have a power to weight ratio of 10.5 - a Mustang GT has a power to weight of 8.73 (~3600 curb weight and 414 bhp), a BMW M3 has a power to weight of 8.2 (~3400 curb weight and 414 bhp).

I just don't see how all that lines up, if we're talking competitive, within the same class. Now if we start taking weight away from the FR-S, add e85, it starts to look much better but that also puts the FR-S another class higher.

I'm shooting for at least 270whp. That would give us better power to weight than a Mustang GT & fancy pants BMW, and should give us a chance to be competitive with the big dogs (assuming supporting mods are done). So far only Vortech & turbo kits can achieve higher than that. But I'm holding out for innovate as I think it has a good shot.

Keep in mind, most of the small turbos are achieving torque curves matching (or better than) the dyno posted of Innovate. Now I give you, this is a great cheap easy to install kit, that gives somebody awesome drivability. But if I'm going forced induction, I'm looking at what's going to make this car competitive with the big dogs, otherwise I'll stay N/A

Just a quick counterpoint: The FR-S/BRZ is 700-900lbs lighter than the two cars above. That can translate into much better times through the corners. But, that is only a situational advantage. In general, even with the adjusted hp, I agree that the M3 will be the more common victor.

However, if your interest is TT I think a turbo would be a better match anyways. TT circuits aren't often tight and technical.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by 2forme

The infamous HE hath spoken -------------
_______________



This thread-am having a good laugh, rather, anyone wonder why they are on e85 and not 91?if you compare 91 vs 91 its not gonna be a fight.

then again, for me its a high rpm game. At 6500rpms, I win, where my peak HP and TQ line up for FTW

Gem.

1. Robi is on E85 (he is not intercooled). The dyno posted here is on 94 (intercooled).

2. 7 psi (not 10+ psi)

3. watch Robi's track videos and see how much time he spends in the 4-6k range and how little time he spends in the 6-7.5k range. You are not always sitting at 6-7.5k on a road course. Just saying...

4. I rode in a vortech car and I can say I was impressed too. The peak'y torque curve is exciting! It pulls too! It is just missing the "twin screw cry".

[King Tut]

Originally Posted by mines13

Do not expect 250whp out of the base kit (91 octane). As covered previously, the torque increase and delivery is the real meat and potatoes of this setup.

Just wanted to quote this to make sure everyone read it twice.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by Draco-REX

Just a quick counterpoint: The FR-S/BRZ is 700-900lbs lighter than the two cars above. That can translate into much better times through the corners. But, that is only a situational advantage. In general, even with the adjusted hp, I agree that the M3 will be the more common victor.

However, if your interest is TT I think a turbo would be a better match anyways. TT circuits aren't often tight and technical.

Very true on all accounts.

I'm interested in both TT and 86 cup. But I'm probably best set with a turbo.

[King Tut]

At least in NASA time trialing you are almost always going to be more competitive without a dyno reclass which means no turbo or supercharger.

[robispec]

Originally Posted by Sonolin

Maybe with reduced weight. But I'm looking at how competitive this kit will be classing vs. other cars and if you take a look at speedventures.com, the Time Attack classing has this car sitting at Class 4-5 which is competing with the mighty e92 BMW m3...

FR-S BC 7

+5.0 points (supercharger)
+1.5 (Hancock RS3 or star specs tires)
+2.0 (coilovers)
=========
+8.5 CC 5

To compete with just a simple Mustang GT, we're looking at the following

Mustang GT BC 6

+1.5 (tires)
+1.5 (brakes)
+2.0 (coilovers)
=========
+5.0 CC 5


So, this kit is going to have to compete without weight reduction. I don't think that's going to work with the numbers here.

220whp = ~260 at the crank

With stock car weight of 2750 we have a power to weight ratio of 10.5 - a Mustang GT has a power to weight of 8.73 (~3600 curb weight and 414 bhp), a BMW M3 has a power to weight of 8.2 (~3400 curb weight and 414 bhp).

I just don't see how all that lines up, if we're talking competitive, within the same class. Now if we start taking weight away from the FR-S, add e85, it starts to look much better but that also puts the FR-S another class higher.

I'm shooting for at least 270whp. That would give us better power to weight than a Mustang GT & fancy pants BMW, and should give us a chance to be competitive with the big dogs (assuming supporting mods are done). So far only Vortech & turbo kits can achieve higher than that. But I'm holding out for innovate as I think it has a good shot.

Keep in mind, most of the small turbos are achieving torque curves matching (or better than) the dyno posted of Innovate. Now I give you, this is a great cheap easy to install kit, that gives somebody awesome drivability. But if I'm going forced induction, I'm looking at what's going to make this car competitive with the big dogs, otherwise I'll stay N/A

The car can be 2515 using the 0.09 rule without taking points for weight reduction..also your formulas all assume onlt one vector.
Think of your car handling like it does but not giving up anything in a straight line...thats where the HUGE S*it eating grin comes from under your full face helmet. It comes from you going through a corner and catching the M3 getting to the straight and he doesn't just dissapear in a straight line...he stays RIGHT where you left the corner...oh thats right you will out break the s*it out of him in the next corner entry too! WOOT WOOOT FUN FUN FUN!

ROBI

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by robispec

The car can be 2515 using the 0.09 rule without taking points for weight reduction..also your formulas all assume onlt one vector.
Think of your car handling like it does but not giving up anything in a straight line...thats where the HUGE S*it eating grin comes from under your full face helmet. It comes from you going through a corner and catching the M3 getting to the straight and he doesn't just dissapear in a straight line...he stays RIGHT where you left the corner...oh thats right you will out break the s*it out of him in the next corner entry too! WOOT WOOOT FUN FUN FUN!

ROBI

Ah! That makes sense thank you. I was wondering about that (<.09). Well that's definitely good news, and gives more in favor of us.

I'm not quite sure what you meant about the rest of that but I'm sure this kit is fun at the track