FR-S vs S2000

[eriktherod]

Originally Posted by ZDan

...Sick to death of oversized/overweight lane-hogging/view-blocking/gas-guzzling behemoths on the road, and lack of small/lightweight choices at the dealerships.

I agree with the rest, but this especially. "Am I good on the left? Yup. Am I good on the right? Oh son of a... EXPEDITION."

As for the S2000 vs FRS, it comes down to great car made in the 2000's and great car made in 2013.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Marrk

"No car is perfect." That's a profound statement and, importantly, it really helps to advance the discussion at hand. We are lucky to have you on the forum.

Good luck in all that you do and thanks for sharing.

He was mocking your vague comment: "I wish the FR-S was a better car". No kidding! I wish my cars were better! I wish ALL cars were better!

[Marrk]

Originally Posted by eriktherod

I agree with the rest, but this especially. "Am I good on the left? Yup. Am I good on the right? Oh son of a... EXPEDITION."

As for the S2000 vs FRS, it comes down to great car made in the 2000's and great car made in 2013.

Those SUVs, for the most part, are nothing less than trucks. It's like sharing the road with a house on four wheels. So many prima facie dangers to SUVs, but they sell them to women and they tell the women, "It's just like driving a car. That easy and much safer." Sure.

[RavSpec]

I vote for S2K as well .... Wife don't allow me to buy one

F20 / F22 engine has been proven to take the performance and also boost while the FRS/BRZ are still a new engine with a brand new injection system.

Giving the choice, stay with the S2k !

[eriktherod]

Originally Posted by RavSpec

I vote for S2K as well .... Wife don't allow me to buy one

F20 / F22 engine has been proven to take the performance and also boost while the FRS/BRZ are still a new engine with a brand new injection system.

Giving the choice, stay with the S2k !

Replace 'F20/F22' with 'B-series' and 'FRS/BRZ' with 'K-series'. I remember those endless debates... and the now final verdict.

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by Marrk

Although I think the FRS-BRZ is underpowered at 200 hp. 240-250 is about perfect for 2600-2800 lbs. If they bring out an NA version with 250 hp, it will kill.

250hp @ 2600lbs would be like this.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfHRpOhPkI4&list=UUOWF9f6zS2a1FLHYK_3mkog& index=5&feature=plcp"]TrackDaze - NJMP Lightning 6/24/12 - S2000 - 01:16.381 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjWn5r0j2dE"]TrackDaze - NJMP Lightning 6/24/12 - Day 2 Session 1 - YouTube[/ame]

[sho220]

Originally Posted by Marrk

"No car is perfect." That's a profound statement and, importantly, it really helps to advance the discussion at hand. We are lucky to have you on the forum.

Good luck in all that you do and thanks for sharing.

So I see you're the resident "special" person on this forum...good to know...I'll try to dumb things down for you in the future...

[Mild2Wild]

@iloveketchup: what was up with the driver of the silver Evo? Looks like he could easily pull away but then found himself sawing at the wheel when he overshot every corner and found himself languishing in understeer....

[iLuveKetchup]

Originally Posted by Mild2Wild

@iloveketchup: what was up with the driver of the silver Evo? Looks like he could easily pull away but then found himself sawing at the wheel when he overshot every corner and found himself languishing in understeer....

I don't know about 'pulling away easily'...lol j/k The Evo would slow down a lot at each turn and I found my self moving too slow for the gear I was in. For example, I take turns 2-4 in 4th gear. I should have been on 3rd gear with the speed we were going. I didn't bother to downshift, since I was able to make it up on the turns.

[Mild2Wild]

Ya it was interesting to watch his power being put to zero use. Can't wait to see the frs display similar results!

[CSG David]

Some interesting pointers to note after testing these two cars back to back at Autoclub Speedway in 105-110F, high humidity weather:



AP2: Hawk HP+ pads and not sure brake fluid, OEM RE050 possibly heat cycled
BRZ: Z1SS (215/45/17) on RPF1 (17x8), Carbotech XP10/8, Ferodo brake fluid, prototype dual exhaust & test pipe

Both cars are basically factory. Some important things to note are:

1. Aerodynamically, the BRZ completely owns the AP2. Foot flat on the throttle is really safe on the banked Roval. The AP2's rearend dances and doesn't exactly inspire the same amount of confidence. Speeds are very close together. An AP2 can hit a higher Vmax.

2. Power: BRZ sucks no matter what. AP2 feels like a champ compared to the 200hp BRZ/FRS.

3. Handling: Very predictable compared to a factory AP2. Obviously the AP2 could use a better tire, but the BRZ needs a crap-ton more camber up front. The shoulders and outer edges were chunking meaning the tire was seriously overheating at the edges.

4. Brakes: Hands down better than even my 255 nonstaggered CR with Hankook RS3s. The brake pads and calipers are simply larger than the S2000 and seriously didn't have any issues on fading, overheating, or possibly rotor cracking coming from a track that likes to make S2000 rotors implode even with ducting. Brake compound doesn't need to be more aggressive like all S2ks (need XP12/10 to feel somewhat similar).

5. With more power, a good alignment, more tire, and possibly suspension, the car will start wiping the S2ks off the track. This is simply due to new cars being engineered better these days. The S2ks are simply more raw and definitely more rewarding to drive. It almost feels too easy to go fast in the BRZ/FRS right now. We'll find out as more testing goes into this car.

[kramerica_industries]

Originally Posted by RavSpec

I vote for S2K as well .... Wife don't allow me to buy one

F20 / F22 engine has been proven to take the performance and also boost while the FRS/BRZ are still a new engine with a brand new injection system.

Giving the choice, stay with the S2k !

While Toyota's D4I system hasn't been used previously in a boxer engine, the core technology (port and direct injection combo) has been used by Toyota since at least 2006 with the introduction of the 2GR-FSE in the 2nd gen IS lineup (IS350).

But - paired with the boxer - yes, agreed, a new match indeed.

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by CSG David

5. With more power, a good alignment, more tire, and possibly suspension, the car will start wiping the S2ks off the track.

Stock vs. stock., my money's on the S2k. Same mods, my money's still on the S2k. Power/weight and superior weight distribution is not going to be denied by slightly better aerodynamics. I bet...

This is simply due to new cars being engineered better these days.

Gotta call b.s. here. An old car with reasonable geometry (usually not hard to get) and springs/sways/dampers will run with similar power/weight NEW cars. Ferinstance, the street 240Z I built up with 10 lb/hp will outrun similar power/weight 370Zs at the track.

Nothing magic has happened over the past 13 years that's going to make the FR-S/BRZ inherently "better" for track work than an S2000.
Cars being "engineered better" means, first and foremost, that they're doing the same old stuff suspension- and chassis- and power/weight-wise for less money. That is the number one area that "engineering advancements" are centered on for any automaker that wants to make profit. And there's nothing wrong with that. That's why we get a car that's equivalent to an E30 M3 in performance for WAY WAY less than E30 M3 money (adjusted for today's dollar).

As far as track work is concerned, the FRS/BRZ are not going to be any inherently better than the S2k simply because they're 13 years newer.

[CSG David]

I think right now the car seriously lacks power which is why everyone thinks the BRZ/FR-S is not very capable. I'm very surprised myself as to how well this car performed at such a high speed track. I'm fairly biased towards S2ks, but driving this has made me change my mindset a bit.

My main concern is reliability of that boxer motor.