200hp / 2700lbs - Really?

[aliphian]

Originally Posted by Mouse

Remove spare tire and jack + carpet and insulation in trunk(does anybody really look in your trunk) + AC unit = at least 110 pounds

This is all stuff you can do on your own for basically nothing.

You live in Miami so you must understand that this is not possible. I would die without an AC in the summer.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Mouse

Remove spare tire and jack + carpet and insulation in trunk(does anybody really look in your trunk) + AC unit = at least 110 pounds

This is all stuff you can do on your own for basically nothing.

Rubbish. Maybe in a Lexus, Benz, Caddy or Bimmer. Not in a Toyota or any other regular car. No way, no how.

[Ryephile]

I would be surprised if the car came with a spare tire at all. A tiny donut at best, perhaps run-flats [collective groans emanate throughout the forum], and ideally a tiny accessory compressor and little tire plug kit next to a minimal tool kit.

Taking the A/C out is not in the cards in this century. You need the drier for windshield de-humidification anywhere there is humidity and the temps dip below the dewpoint, which is most of the USA.

Removing acoustic treatment can only go so far before nobody wants to be in the car without earplugs, driver included. Toyota might have the man-hour resources to develop sheetmetal panels for optimzed acoustics with minimal or no treatment while still retaining strength and weight characteristics, but that's an extensive and expensive to develop physics modeling on top of many prototypes that also add significantly to cost. On a relatively inexpensive and low-volume car, that's asking a lot.

There's a saying that floats around racing circles to the effect of: "High-Performance, Low Cost, and Reliability; choose two." Personally I believe you can only really perfect one of those, as having two attributes means you're sacrificing both.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

There's a saying that floats around racing circles to the effect of: "High-Performance, Low Cost, and Reliability; choose two." Personally I believe you can only really perfect one of those, as having two attributes means you're sacrificing both.

As I said in a previous thread, those terms are highly dependent on the person quantifying them. Reliability means two different things for a VW driver and a Honda/Toyota driver. Low cost means something different for someone pulling in $50k a year vs. someone pulling in $500k a year. Same with performance. If you have a Ferrari in your garage, performance means one thing vs. someone driving a Camry.

[Siriusly.Andrew]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

As I said in a previous thread, those terms are highly dependent on the person quantifying them. Reliability means two different things for a VW driver and a Honda/Toyota driver. Low cost means something different for someone pulling in $50k a year vs. someone pulling in $500k a year. Same with performance. If you have a Ferrari in your garage, performance means one thing vs. someone driving a Camry.

So you drive a Protege and I drive a Civic.

All we have is reliability, and inexpensive as far as cars are concerned.

I honestly don't think someone who has a Ferrari parked in his/her garage is looking at the FT-86 with hungry eyes the way we are.

Just saying.

And as far as the quote goes -- its pretty much right on the money. You can have Fast and Reliable, but at what cost? for me, my first unborn child, and a few limbs I'm sure.

You can have Fast and Inexpensive, but how long before its in the shop with a $$$$ repair bill?

Or you can have Reliable and Inexpensive... Or affordable and dependable. Sure as hell isn't fast, but it'll last decades and sure didn't cost me an arm, leg and unborn child.

[tranzformer]

Originally Posted by Siriusly.Andrew

So you drive a Protege and I drive a Civic.

All we have is reliability, and inexpensive as far as cars are concerned.

I honestly don't think someone who has a Ferrari parked in his/her garage is looking at the FT-86 with hungry eyes the way we are.

Just saying.

And as far as the quote goes -- its pretty much right on the money. You can have Fast and Reliable, but at what cost? for me, my first unborn child, and a few limbs I'm sure.

You can have Fast and Inexpensive, but how long before its in the shop with a $$$$ repair bill?

Or you can have Reliable and Inexpensive... Or affordable and dependable. Sure as hell isn't fast, but it'll last decades and sure didn't cost me an arm, leg and unborn child.

What is fast to you? Top speed? 150mph? 160mph? 190mph? 220 mph? What about acceleration? 0-60 times? Under 5 seconds? Under 4? 1/4 mile times? Do you want under 13 seconds? Under 12?

I never said someone with a Ferrari would buy an FT (but I'm sure there could be someone somewhere in the world that would for whatever reason) but I said that performance for someone who owns a Ferrari (the standard that that sets would be different than the standard of performance (or lack thereof) that an econobox would set. That term "performance" is not equal for all.

What is an expensive car to you? $30k? $80k? $500K? That depends on your salary, what you value putting your money towards, hobbies, family situation...etc. That term "expensive" is not equal for all.


What is your definition of reliability? That the car should last you 2 years with no problems since you will sell it and get a new one? That it should last you 15 years and 200,000 miles? That you only spend ~$1000 in repairs a year? What does reliability mean to you? That term "reliability" is not equal for all and does not mean the same thing to each person.

In the end, you could get all 3 in a package depending on how you defined those terms and your criteria. If you were Bill Gates and could buy a new car each time it broke down and left it at the side of the road that is different. If you just got out of college and have student loans and are making $35k at an internship, reliability and cost might mean something totally different than what Bill Gates would say.

[xantonin]

I love people that do weight reduction in their cars and save between 20-150 lbs.

IMO a more effective weight reduction strategy would be a treadmill, if those are the losses you're looking at.

[ichitaka05]

Originally Posted by xantonin

I love people that do weight reduction in their cars and save between 20-150 lbs.

IMO a more effective weight reduction strategy would be a treadmill, if those are the losses you're looking at.

Good comment! Where's "Like" button!

[john]

That joke actually put a smile on my face in my lonely room. Hahahaha.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

If you are going that far, might as well take out rear seats plus front passenger seat. Take out stereo. Take out power steering.

To put things in perspective, I've almost done all that and more in the Supra. Let's see... No rear seats/carpet/spare tire/jack in the back. Recaro manual seats in the front, with buckets waiting for brackets coming. ABS/power steering/AC all gone. Carbon fiber hood. Aluminum driveshaft. Forged lightweight wheels. Next steps are ATI crank damper (people don't just put lightweight pulleys on your cranks, use a damper), lighter flywheel, chip/scrape out front sound deadening, maybe carbon fiber door panels. So far I've got this iron-blocked inline 6 powered, steel chassied Supra into all-carbon LFA weight territory. (ie, still several hundred pounds heavier than a conservative FT86 weight estimate.)

But I don't want to do all this to my FT86. At least not for a few years. I want a nice stereo, pretty interior, comfortable noise levels, not have to worry about calling somebody if I get a flat, being able to park without getting an arm workout, not sweating like crazy in the summer, or getting a sore ass if I drive for more than a few hours. You know, the daily driver things.

But it also has to be fun, and with the ability to slowly turn into a sharp performance beast as I get bored with it.

[blur]

I'm beginning to do some weight reduction, and Ive noticed so far that honda made it so that anything you take out in the interior pops back in... so for a track day the back and pass seats come out in a couple minutes.

[Mouse]

Originally Posted by aliphian

You live in Miami so you must understand that this is not possible. I would die without an AC in the summer.

I know...I would die without it as well. But some people live in areas where is does not get that hot in the summer.

[Ryephile]

Originally Posted by tranzformer

What is fast to you?

What is an expensive car to you?

What is your definition of reliability?

Your right, it's all relative and depends on the specific context. The context we have so far with the FT is something like 200HP and around 2700 pounds for perhaps $25k. Obviously the reliability facet isn't in known for sure, but Toyota does historically have a good rep in that department [dumb drivers with stacks of floor mats be damned].

Just going off the basic numbers here, it's looking like we'll have a taut rear-drive sports car with acceleration similar to the current Miata for about the same price as no-option Cooper S. Since $25k is less than the average new car sale price these days [IIRC], I'd say it's relatively affordable and should have relatively good performance.

[aliphian]

Originally Posted by Ryephile

Your right, it's all relative and depends on the specific context. The context we have so far with the FT is something like 200HP and around 2700 pounds for perhaps $25k. Obviously the reliability facet isn't in known for sure, but Toyota does historically have a good rep in that department [dumb drivers with stacks of floor mats be damned].

Just going off the basic numbers here, it's looking like we'll have a taut rear-drive sports car with acceleration similar to the current Miata for about the same price as no-option Cooper S. Since $25k is less than the average new car sale price these days [IIRC], I'd say it's relatively affordable and should have relatively good performance.

I would have to assume that if this car is done right, it will probably KILL the Miata market. Maybe Mazda will make a new RX-7!