Vacci-Nation [CLOSED DUE TO DISRESPECTFUL, INSULTING, POLITICAL POSTS

[Capt Spaulding]

Originally Posted by cjd

Hmm. Does penance at the gates of hell count? Does it matter if it actually helps fix shit?
I don't know what the pass is for. Being a good human? Probably not. But that's making assumptions based on an isolated thing. I have no clue who this guy is or what else he's about.

One wonders.

[Dadhawk]

Friend of mine's stepson came back from a bachelor party weekend in Myrtle Beach and tested positive for COVID, after one of the party boys showed up with a "cold". The stepson had the second Pfizer shot in March, but has much milder symptoms than the non-vaxed persons in the group. He was pretty much around the "cold" guy 24/7 during the trip, in close quarters (cars, hotel rooms, etc).

Our in-patient positive COVID patients spiked over the weekend going from 12 systemwide to around 50. From the way I understand it, none of these were bleed over cases so far.

(EDIT: I should add he did not immediately test positive for COVID, although my message makes it seem he did. It was after the expected incubation period)

[MuseChaser]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding3451835

The; question/statements you lead off with have a bit if self congratulatory ring to them. Beyond that, they are very much of "When did you stop beating your wife?" sort.

The statements I led off with were nothing more than expressions of the way I view things, and how any non-racist person views things. How that can be interpreted as being some kind of accusatory implication along the "when did you stop beating your wife?" line is beyond me. I'm also confused as to why my stating a hopefully commonly held view is "self-congratulatory" and therefore to be received negatively, while you stating your views is admirable and note-worthy.

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding3451835

Of course, very few will disagree with the first three. But, assume for the moment that the economic game has been rigged for over a century. Assume further that you (and I) are the unwitting beneficiaries of the rules of that game.

I don't assume anything, nor will I grant you either assumption. The economic "game" has been rigged to various degrees over the century, but the rigging has swung back and forth among various demographics mightily. In the past twenty to thirty years, the "game" has indeed been rigged, but not in favor of white people, and not in favor of white males in particular. There was at time when that WAS necessary, to make badly needed progress towards equality of opportunity. I am in favor of favoring no one based upon skin color.

As far as being "unwitting beneficiaries," I am neither unwitting nor a beneficiary, but continue to assume anything you'd like.

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding3451835

Is it enough to say "I never owned slaves and my family never owned slaves so I bear no responsibility for the current plight of people of color" and wash your hands of it? Is it OK that if you were black you would stand a 400% greater chance of being killed in an encounter with the police? Because, come on, even Lantana knows there are loads benefits to being white. So what should you do?

You didn't answer a single one of my questions, but I will answer yours. Yes, it IS enough for me to say that I bear no responsibility for the current plight of people of color, whatever you feel that plight may be. We are all responsible for our own decisions. I am willing to help anyone, regardless of what "person of color" they may be, but I am not going to say that I am personally responsible for another person's hardships unless I personally caused that hardship. Likewise, I am not going to hold the grandson of someone who mightily wronged my grandfather responsible for that wrong.

Re/ your question, "Is it OK that if you were black you would stand a 400% greater chance of being killed in an encounter with the police?"...

That's a question that does not deserve a yes or no answer, because it ignores some necessary facts. Let's ask "Why?" rather than "Is it OK?" Black people account for 13% of the population, but commit 53% of murders. Black males account for 6% of the population, but commit 45% of murders. Black people account for almost 40% of violent crimes, a rate almost five times that of white people when compared to total population percentages. in 2017, per 1000 violent crimes 2.9 white people were killed by police, while 1.5 black people were killed by police. ALL of these statistics are readily available, and most were taken directly from the FBI's crime statistics website. Black people are HALF as likely to be killed by police while committing a crime than white people. The reason so many more are killed by police is that, for whatever reasons (and I do NOT believe the reasons have anything to do with skin color or genetic makeup), black males commit a staggeringly higher number of violent crimes. Is it "OK?" Nothing is OK about any of this.

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding3451835

"Depending on viewpoint being expressed"? You're starting to sound like "impureclient" and el piloto.

I try to express myself clearly and kindly without rancor, but yes, I do believe they both have expressed valid viewpoints upon occasion, albeit in prose I wouldn't choose to use personally.

[Capt Spaulding]

Sorry to hear about the young man. Hopefully, he'll be over it soon w/o any lingering side effects,

I hope breakthrough cases are minimal. Most folks down here have never dropped the mask habit. Probably a good thing.

[Capt Spaulding]

@ Musechaser. Then it appears that you and I disagree on every fundamental point. To say the game rigging pendulum has swung back and forth is a misinterpretation or misrepresentation of reality. There have been feeble attempts to reset the game on several occasions, but they were half hearted and doomed from the start. You may choose not to acknowledge it, but you and I are and have been the beneficiaries of our skin color all our lives. That is the point of the 1619 project and what the CRT promoters have seized on.

Many of the people who founded this nation were slave owners and profited immensely from that practice. The economy of the 19th Century depended to a considerable on human slavery. The white economic privilege of the 20th Century was fueled to a large extent by the relegation of non-whites to subservient roles. That racist legacy is still with us and will remain so for a very long time. We can choose to acknowledge it and try to remedy it or we can hide from the fact that it exists and that we bear responsibility. Because we do, you and I. We both do. Falling back on tired tropes like "individual responsibility" won't change that nor will it make the kind if change that is in need of making.

Are individuals responsible for their decisions? Of course. For some of us though the menu of choices is much longer than for others. Until the menu is the same for everyone and everyone has the same ability to access and understand it we are obligated to do what is necessary to remedy that injustice.

You argue that homicide rates in the black community are unacceptable. I could not agree more. But they have nothing to do with the race of the perpetrators or the victims. Join me then in looking for creative answers to address the problems that have plagued those communities for decades. It will be neither easy nor inexpensive. It won't respond to token efforts, But, if a "just" world is the result, don't you think it will be worth it?

I do not think we share much, if any. common ground and further discussion will not uncover any. So, this will be my last communication with you on this thread. Those who want to continue to plow the vaccination field will be able to do so in relative peace. If you like, feel free to start another thread or contact me via PM.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

Are individuals responsible for their decisions? Of course. For some of us though the menu of choices is much longer than for others. Until the menu is the same for everyone and everyone has the same ability to access and understand it we are obligated to do what is necessary to remedy that injustice.

In the last few days, I've learned quite a bit from playing catch-up with your references. Please accept my gratitude for all that you've shared. It matters.

[spike021]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

That's a question that does not deserve a yes or no answer, because it ignores some necessary facts. Let's ask "Why?" rather than "Is it OK?" Black people account for 13% of the population, but commit 53% of murders. Black males account for 6% of the population, but commit 45% of murders. Black people account for almost 40% of violent crimes, a rate almost five times that of white people when compared to total population percentages. in 2017, per 1000 violent crimes 2.9 white people were killed by police, while 1.5 black people were killed by police. ALL of these statistics are readily available, and most were taken directly from the FBI's crime statistics website. Black people are HALF as likely to be killed by police while committing a crime than white people. The reason so many more are killed by police is that, for whatever reasons (and I do NOT believe the reasons have anything to do with skin color or genetic makeup), black males commit a staggeringly higher number of violent crimes. Is it "OK?" Nothing is OK about any of this.

I didn't want to get involved in this topic, so all I'll add is that the quoted portion easily and specifically passes blame onto black people for these issues, and IMO that's incredibly wrong and (probably) offensive; I cannot say it's offensive to me as I'm not black, but I'd assume it would be.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Capt Spaulding

Sorry to hear about the young man. Hopefully, he'll be over it soon w/o any lingering side effects,

Just got an update. After just about three days, fever and congestion is gone. He is still very tired, but it was a pretty quick recovery.

[Ultramaroon]

Originally Posted by spike021

I didn't want to get involved in this topic, so all I'll add is that the quoted portion easily and specifically passes blame onto black people for these issues, and IMO that's incredibly wrong and (probably) offensive; I cannot say it's offensive to me as I'm not black, but I'd assume it would be.

Regardless of your ethnicity, it's ok to feel offended. That's just healthy empathy.

[Atmo]

Originally Posted by MuseChaser

I try to express myself clearly and kindly without rancor...

You do that admirably considering the ad hominem, straw man and red herring statements strewn about.

Thanks for the refresher on the FBI crime stats. The unfortunate part is the black on black homicides and the trend is more violence as police are defunded, retire, or quit in primarily blue cities and states that have been mismanaged for decades.

[wbradley]

Gentlemen, the statistics quoted are not a result of DNA. If you could play Sim City starting with people extracted from their homes, being treated inhumanely and if they survive, get to spend their entire lives as chattel. Add in the abolition of slavery at some point and then many decades of mostly stagnant cultural development for these people. So, you have poverty and urbanization to add to the mix. And a shameful period of blatant racism during the segregation in the south and efforts to impede blacks from participating in democracy.
Yes, black people overall are far better off than they were. But if they could have chosen to leave the US post slavery as refugees and start anew not looked upon sometimes with great resentment as those meant to serve, Liberia is not a great example but if all the blacks left just as so many Europeans left their countries to start anew if would have been massively different. They existed in a world that has resisted their progress for many many decades. And they came from cultures not dissimilar to the various first nations people of the world, far less advanced technologically. Not like Europeans who come from the developed old world.
It does improve year after year in the big scheme, and maybe one day if will fade out. That partly also depends on the prevalence of old money, which is dependant on govt policy, taxes, etc.

[Atmo]

Will a mask mandate return? Fauci said he's looking at it, some places already instituted it, vaccinated or not.

Apparently there was hope that removing the mask mandate would increase vaccination rates but according to the CDC that didn't happen. A Kaiser Family Foundation survey showed that 85% of respondents didn't change their minds after the mask mandate was lifted.

https://news.yahoo.com/mask-mandates...004309392.html

[spike021]

Originally Posted by Atmo

Will a mask mandate return? Fauci said he's looking at it, some places already instituted it, vaccinated or not.

Apparently there was hope that removing the mask mandate would increase vaccination rates but according to the CDC that didn't happen. A Kaiser Family Foundation survey showed that 85% of respondents didn't change their minds after the mask mandate was lifted.

https://news.yahoo.com/mask-mandates...004309392.html

It's whatever to me. I never stopped wearing my mask really when indoors where I would be in enclosed, small spaces with people, like at the grocery store.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm incredibly tired of wearing it and wish I could just throw it away.

[wbradley]

Just heard in the news that 20.1% of the population of Ontario have not had even one vaccination.

I hope these people are forced by the government to wash their hands before they go out since clearly many of them have been sitting on their finger.