SCCA Solo C Street Discussion

[itzmik3]

Originally Posted by Laloosh

I for one am highly against protesting such things and am all for people finding out the correct info prior to some ass hole ruining your event.

i definitely agree.
you should of seen STX last year.
Lets just say that v1 of a certain arm used a spherical bearing that pretty much every STX driver had on the FRS/BRZ.
Had a clarification not been put out there would have been more than 70% of the STX competitors who have been DSQ'd.

Point being, despite how adamant that @ChrisV is that the Koni's are legal within the letter of the rule book, I personally wouldn't want to make the long trek to Lincoln with any possibility that the Koni's are not 100% legal.

Thread crapping or not there is still a point that wants to be clarified and why not have it clarified. If Chris ends up being correct, then great since now everyone can be rest assured that their suspension is 100% legal.
If not, well then aren't you glad we had this conversation?

[Jawnathin]

Originally Posted by ChrisV

If someone knows something concrete...

And that is exactly what he plans on trying to find out. He stated he felt the measurements were incomplete and that is why he is questioning their legality. Maybe he'll confirm that they are legal or maybe he will find something concrete that suggests otherwise.

You say you are operating on facts and he's operating on conjecture, but isn't possible you have an incomplete set of facts? Any variations in camber from OEM will raise questions about their legality, especially since there is a competitive advantage. It is understandable that people want to understand why and how. The more data we have around the topic, the better it is for the community.

I don't have a dog in the fight, I just want to know whether they are legal or not. If they are, then great, I have a legal option of getting some more camber than I have today. If they are not legal, then I know I can just stick with what I've got.

[ChrisV]

Koni and two posters here confirm dimensions based on actual measurements.

Some guy who's never held the parts is certain they're illegal.

And you think he's the correct one.

You guys are a trip.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

[itzmik3]

Originally Posted by Laloosh

.2-.4? Nobody would even notice. The main reason this controversy started is because it took me all of 10 seconds notice the difference by visually seeing more camber on a koni replacement car. The owner was honest and the shop where the work is done is honest as well. It's more like 1+ degree. BTW that was a stock spring car, and he managed -2.2 as well. I just went back to my sheets and I was at -.9 and -1.2 with maxed out bolts and pulling(on the alignment rack). Then really throwing weight into it and moving the top hat bolts I got an additional .2-.3 (this was based of my home camber gauge (not the rack).

and I am sure the honesty is either going to help a lot of people in this thread as @Jawnathin puts best

Originally Posted by Jawnathin

I don't have a dog in the fight, I just want to know whether they are legal or not. If they are, then great, I have a legal option of getting some more camber than I have today. If they are not legal, then I know I can just stick with what I've got.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by itzmik3

i definitely agree.
you should of seen STX last year.
Lets just say that v1 of a certain arm used a spherical bearing that pretty much every STX driver had on the FRS/BRZ.
Had a clarification not been put out there would have been more than 70% of the STX competitors who have been DSQ'd.

Point being, despite how adamant that @ChrisV is that the Koni's are legal within the letter of the rule book, I personally wouldn't want to make the long trek to Lincoln with any possibility that the Koni's are not 100% legal.

Thread crapping or not there is still a point that wants to be clarified and why not have it clarified. If Chris ends up being correct, then great since now everyone can be rest assured that their suspension is 100% legal.
If not, well then aren't you glad we had this conversation?

That was my intent when I brought this up 2 months ago...it turned into a piss off ass hole response type thread and I ended up trying to defend something i truly don't give a damn about. My intent was that this info is out there and if you are good enough to trophy at nationals and someone who knows is bitter, well then your 1500 dollar weekend just got ruined.

[solort]

Originally Posted by itzmik3

The next tour or pro that a protest could be administered would be at Nationals for us west coast guys (no we aren't driving all the way to Packwood lol).

Call someone on the East coast to do the protest. It's not done in malice but for clarification of an alternate legal part. It is really that simple and why the process is there...

Everyone should want the "truth" before Nationals...

[renfield90]

Originally Posted by itzmik3

however in the end, it doesn't matter if the variances are off by 1mm or even 1 micron since now you are getting a competitive advantage.

That's intellectually dishonest. I can pull any two random OEM units and they will be more than 1 micron different from each other. "Within OEM tolerances" is the droid you're looking for.

Originally Posted by itzmik3

I am just waiting to see once we see a side by side comparison with parts in their hands so this can finally be put to rest.

Dude. Did you not see the side by side comparison I reposted? They are identical to a tolerance far below the width of a human hair. If you think the width of a human hair is a competitive advantage then I'd like to remind you that you are dodging cones in parking lots at 30 miles per hour.

[Rampage]

Originally Posted by renfield90

I'd like to remind you that you are dodging cones in parking lots at 30 miles per hour.

Amateur racing for a $3 plastic trophy is always the most cutthroat. It was like that when I raced almost 20 years ago and still is. This thread IS entertaining however.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by renfield90

That's intellectually dishonest. I can pull any two random OEM units and they will be more than 1 micron different from each other. "Within OEM tolerances" is the droid you're looking for.


Dude. Did you not see the side by side comparison I reposted? They are identical to a tolerance far below the width of a human hair. If you think the width of a human hair is a competitive advantage then I'd like to remind you that you are dodging cones in parking lots at 30 miles per hour.

So the width of a human hair is equal to a degree of camber? Any stock units hitting over two degrees? Answer to both of those is no btw.

[ksconekiller]

Holy cow. I'm away from the internet for two days, and look what happens!

I don't want to muddy things, but I will say that my measurements were of the hole diameters as well as their distances from the shock body and perch (someone suggested that it was only the hole sizes themselves). This verifies that the holes were no larger than OEM and in the same locations as on the OEM strut. On my car (a BRZ), I was able to get 1.5 degrees of camber on the OEM suspension with crash bolts, and swapping the Konis gained no additional camber. I am 100% sure that they should be considered dimensionally identical to OEM. I have had both units in hand, and I would have no hesitation about using these for C Street.

As for people who are getting more camber, I don't have any suggestions other than manufacturing tolerances. I've seen some people post that they get just over 1 degree of camber with crash bolts, and some people are getting 1.7-1.8 with crash bolts and the TRD springs. solort even posted that he is seeing 1.8 degrees on stock springs and struts; what do you think will happen when he puts on the TRD springs? I'll bet he sees over 2 degrees. And he is coming from years of running Neons that have similar front suspensions and factory crash bolts options.

As has been mentioned, I hope it gets cleared up before Nationals. If you're running these struts, I'd recommend having a stock strut on hand for comparison. If you've done that and they measure the same, let people throw paper if they choose.

[rx3]

Originally Posted by SeanRTR

Bought a set of Sparco 16 inch +48 16x7 wheels in 215/45/16's Rival-S to try in the rear for the Pro Solo this weekend....I don't think this is going to be the answer, and the car looks ridiculous with 235/45/17 'Stones up front, and 215/45/16 Rival-S in the back, but I need to try something for the Pro's as I'm getting killed before the first turn.

I'm glad you tested this.
At one point I was contemplating about running Kumho V710 in the 215/40/16 dimension in order to get a gearing advantage and luckily decided to run on wider 17s R-comps instead (R-comps are legal where I run).




Btw, as far as protesting goes: The protest-fee-deposit at our slaloms is approx. $500, so people only protest if they have a very valid point.

[markw]

Originally Posted by Laloosh

Chris (has a frs) is using the bolts from my car, which were bought at a Subaru dealer. PROTEST!!!!

"Hardware items (nuts,bolts, etc.) may be replaced by similar items of unrestricted origin." (page 71, last sentence)

So subaru bolts in the FRS are legal. Hell, save yourself the 6 bucks or so a bolt and go to an industrial hardware store and buy 14mmx60 flange bolts that are the same grade for under a buck each, completely legal.

Oh, my clarification came out in this last fast track, notice that 13.10(c) has now been changed in the rulebook to specify last catalytic converter. So no over-pipe, cat-less front pipe and cat-back setups.

So, now what about beating Fenter and Harvey, any aliens in our crowd? I'm going to El Toro July 11th to try my luck against the fast norcal guys. Debating on nationals, I think I may be good enough to trophy, or at least put myself in the upper half of the field which would be 17th or better.

Mark

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by markw

"Hardware items (nuts,bolts, etc.) may be replaced by similar items of unrestricted origin." (page 71, last sentence)

So subaru bolts in the FRS are legal. Hell, save yourself the 6 bucks or so a bolt and go to an industrial hardware store and buy 14mmx60 flange bolts that are the same grade for under a buck each, completely legal.

Oh, my clarification came out in this last fast track, notice that 13.10(c) has now been changed in the rulebook to specify last catalytic converter. So no over-pipe, cat-less front pipe and cat-back setups.

So, now what about beating Fenter and Harvey, any aliens in our crowd? I'm going to El Toro July 11th to try my luck against the fast norcal guys. Debating on nationals, I think I may be good enough to trophy, or at least put myself in the upper half of the field which would be 17th or better.

Mark

That was suppose to be a joke. Lol

[ChrisV]

Originally Posted by markw

So, now what about beating Fenter and Harvey, any aliens in our crowd? I'm going to El Toro July 11th to try my luck against the fast norcal guys. Debating on nationals, I think I may be good enough to trophy, or at least put myself in the upper half of the field which would be 17th or better.

Mark

I am decidedly not an alien, but I'm looking forward to my first trip out there. 36 registered as of this morning, and I know there are a few more people yet to register (solort isn't even registered yet from what I can tell).

We've got a good shot at getting our own run group like STX did last year.