BRZ vs Mustang - Here is the review the haters have been waiting for.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

I had the opposite happen to me in my WRX and that's what sealed my decision to get a lightweight RWD car. I've started doing go kart leagues and after I get in my WRX after the go karts, I may as well be driving a city bus. It was a really a revelation to me and I understand that most people won't understand it, but I'd rather have a slow car with great handling than a big fast car. The WRX is fun in snow and gravel, but on pavement it is just boring and numb. To me the BRZ is a go kart for the street.

But a lot of people aren't coming from that experience they are just assuming that the twins will magically make them happy when they drive. For me I've been reconciling the fact that I will be trading the Supra's acceleration intensity for handling response and creature comforts. But I am also exploring contingencies if I realize I really miss the acceleration (positive displacement SC if they get a reliable one developed).

This car will not be perfect. People need to remember that or there could be some destroyed expectations.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by brewksy

Thanks - that's exactly why most of us would call this a win.



If you want to compare a true handling track, just compare the Solo Classes that each respective car will be in: BRZ = C or D, Mustang = F. That means the Mustang will be quite a bit slower around a very tight handling track. But of course this doesn't mean anything to you because you believe that Streets of Willow Springs has somehow become the ultimate standard for determining how well a car handles, while ignoring the actual races/tracks that this car will be seen in.

Then again, race times are still a ridiculous metric because the Miata beats cars that are 10 times its price in Solo. Does this mean the Miata is the only car worth buying? Of course not. What's important is PREFERENCE and FEEL - and we tend to put some thought and weight into the words these reviewers are talking about instead of just a single lap time from a single track.

Spacey put it really well...

never once did i say that the mustang handles better than the frs so i dont know why you are trying to call me out on it.

calling a solo event held in a parking lot a track event is a stretch. its pretty cool when you put words in peoples mouths. i think that streets is way more technical than big willow. i think that streets is a technical track. thats all. i could just as easily use this stupid tactic on your post and say that car and driver tested a miata and bentley on an auto x and the bently won. that has to be the best handling car. do you see how that reasoning sounds coming from the other end?

just like power doesn not equate to fun, neither does handling.

[Spaceywilly]

Originally Posted by fatoni

just like power doesn not equate to fun, neither does handling.

Exactly! So how do we know which one is more fun? Drive them both and compare... now let's see, who has done that? Oh right, MT did it and they preferred the BRZ. So why do you still insist the Mustang is more fun again?

[Steve]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

Exactly! So how do we know which one is more fun? Drive them both and compare... now let's see, who has done that? Oh right, MT did it and they preferred the BRZ. So why do you still insist the Mustang is more fun again?

I've figured it out, he must have stopped the review after the mustang got the better lap time. He missed out the concluding statement that said the BRZ is the more joyous and rewarding car to drive that will have you grinning from ear to ear every time you gun that 2 liter boxer.

[dookie11]

Originally Posted by Capt Canuck

It'll be sooooooooo fucking great when folks actually have their cars, can pop their cherries and quit laboring over every last review that comes out for these cars :-)

It'll be a pleasant time full of sunshine, lolipops, and kittens... of course then the FI'd versions will come out and we can have another go 'round.

Wonder if when we get our cars, those idiots with shitty Civics and Integras will still pull that fast n furious race at the stoplight/freeway crap?

^^Someone edit my grammar. Just got back from Toyotafest and I'm too pooped haha.

[brewksy]

Originally Posted by fatoni

never once did i say that the mustang handles better than the frs so i dont know why you are trying to call me out on it.

calling a solo event held in a parking lot a track event is a stretch. its pretty cool when you put words in peoples mouths. i think that streets is way more technical than big willow. i think that streets is a technical track. thats all. i could just as easily use this stupid tactic on your post and say that car and driver tested a miata and bentley on an auto x and the bently won. that has to be the best handling car. do you see how that reasoning sounds coming from the other end?

just like power doesn not equate to fun, neither does handling.

My ridiculously-opposite argument was meant to bring to light the ridiculousness of your own argument, and it worked perfectly. Thanks for acknowledging that.

The best test of handling is on a very small track like AutoX, etc. The best test of power/speed is a drag race. Everything else is a compromise of the two. However, No single lap time in ANY of these events determines the FEEL or PREFERENCE that the driver will experience. That was the only point I made in my post. Which is why a lot of us are listening to the *words* and opinions about the feel from the drivers of the car, rather than the lap time comparos.

Sure, some will want more power. Some will want better springs. But you can't deny that for those that are looking for a pure-feel, great-handling car, this review is a solid WIN.

[OrbitalEllipses]

I think the point here is that the Mustang very likely MUST have the ~$2K track pack to beat the BRZ, which essentially makes it close enough to the price of the FR-S where we shouldn't be talking about how much cheaper a Mustang can be had.

[Kunzite]

Originally Posted by fatoni

its all out of hand but imo the zealots are the ones saying that the comparison with the mustang is a win even though it lost the objective tests and doing the same with that old 370z gymkhana while throwing out the megane comparo because it doesnt support their ideas.

im pretty close to a zealot. i think this is the most important car to come stateside since the miata in 89 because what i want to have is fun and these cars seem to have good value in terms of smile per dollar

Well, it is a win - if you're looking for the best handling, fun, big grin on your face car; not if you're looking at the times only. The performance difference likely can be fixed with better tires, btw.
And sometimes, just being close to a much more powerful car can be called a "win", too, even if it's not actually.

On the Megane thread I see people are accepting that's a very fast car. Should they state this again, and again, and again, on each thread all around this forum, explaining over and over how sh*tty the 86 is in comparison, and how they'll buy the hatch instead? Then, calling names (zealot! fanboy!) if one would still like the 86 better? What would be enough, in your opinion, for one not to be considered a fanatic?
Preferences should not be mistaken for fanaticism.

[serialk11r]

Maybe the BRZ is more fun for most people who want to drive their car hard, but the Mustang completely blows it away as far as acceleration goes, and like it or not that's an important aspect of a car's performance, and perhaps the most important aspect for the person who only drives on the street and doesn't mind spending a little more on fuel money.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by Spaceywilly

Exactly! So how do we know which one is more fun? Drive them both and compare... now let's see, who has done that? Oh right, MT did it and they preferred the BRZ. So why do you still insist the Mustang is more fun again?

i never said the mustang was more fun.

Originally Posted by brewksy

My ridiculously-opposite argument was meant to bring to light the ridiculousness of your own argument, and it worked perfectly. Thanks for acknowledging that.

The best test of handling is on a very small track like AutoX, etc. The best test of power/speed is a drag race. Everything else is a compromise of the two. However, No single lap time in ANY of these events determines the FEEL or PREFERENCE that the driver will experience. That was the only point I made in my post. Which is why a lot of us are listening to the *words* and opinions about the feel from the drivers of the car, rather than the lap time comparos.

Sure, some will want more power. Some will want better springs. But you can't deny that for those that are looking for a pure-feel, great-handling car, this review is a solid WIN.

just because we are using similar reasoning doesnt mean im not making sense. we are coming to different conclusions and while my conclusion was kind of supported yours wasnt. autox is only the best test for andling at the speeds in an autox. cars with more power usually need to handle at higher speeds and they give up alot .

Originally Posted by Kunzite

Well, it is a win - if you're looking for the best handling, fun, big grin on your face car; not if you're looking at the times only. The performance difference likely can be fixed with better tires, btw.
And sometimes, just being close to a much more powerful car can be called a "win", too, even if it's not actually.

On the Megane thread I see people are accepting that's a very fast car. Should they state this again, and again, and again, on each thread all around this forum, explaining over and over how sh*tty the 86 is in comparison, and how they'll buy the hatch instead? Then, calling names (zealot! fanboy!) if one would still like the 86 better? What would be enough, in your opinion, for one not to be considered a fanatic?
Preferences should not be mistaken for fanaticism.

handling doesnt equal ear to ear grins. but if you are saying if you look for the best handling, its a win...that just doesnt mean a whole lot to me. i could just as easily say, if you are looking for the greenest car, its a solid win for ford

[KeepGuessing]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

I still have yet to see the "numerous confirmed duplications" of a sub 6.4 second run by the RSX-S. Just one at 6.2, one at 6.4, and 6.5. Use Motor Trend's numbers for the RSX if you want.

Once again it appears 6.4 is some arbitrary number....Holding ZERO relevance to the conversation..

My statement was the RSX-S beats this car to 60..You throw out 6.4..I'm ASSUMING you're implying the FRS/BRZ does 0-60 in 6.4..IN which I say you're out of your mind....Why? Because the car does not do 0-60 in 6.4....A 12" rollout is not a method of testing 0-60 in any logical sense..The Rollout method was a shady way started by ford and GM as a means to impress the market with inflated 0-60 times...There is no "us standard method of testing" using a rollout, and if you've EVER been to a drag strip you know that the 12" from beam to beam is not a gap used to get a rolling start, it is the staging area..You don't see cars tutting through a 12" buffer zone before they hammer on it to improve their times, the idea that it's a more "structured way to record 0-60's" is silly...

NOW once again I ask you where the 6.4 comes in.....If you tell me " The BRZ does this 0-60 according to publication A and publication B who admit this is how they perform their 0-60 tests" I will copy and past the previous paragraph in response...just letting you know..

A lot of speculation going on there. Here's another RSX-S at 159 whp. Another at 167 whp. Another at 162 whp. Are these all broken or worn down RSXs as well? There are more out there.

What your "160WHP" implies is that the forum members RSX experiences a 13% loss in power...Meanwhile the RSX-S loses 20% of it's power through the same component system...

Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

You can post all the dyno readouts you WANT....I've already told you as i'm sure plenty of others have told you how inaccurate a dyno can be from one to the next as dyno's are methods of tuning not methods of getting "solid readings" on power production, that is what engine dyno's are for...


So to reiterate...

in YOUR eyes...RSX losing 13% power and RSX-S losing 20% power...seems rational, common, feasible and correct.

Riiiight..

Nope, try again. The rating dropped from 210 to 201. Under the current standard, the RSX-S was a 201 hp car at its peak.

And SOMEHOW 201HP is LESS than 200ps? What are you high on here kiddo..The point of my statement is it matters not if the car is producing 210 209 208 207 206 205 204 203 202.5 202.1 202 201.9995...The engine is producing MORE power than the FA20 is producing, and for it to somehow produce LESS on a dynamometer means something is not correct.

To supplement that is the drivetrain dilemma you can't seem to wrap your head around..

A 201HP car when measured on a graph....Spinning the FRONT tires.....through a smaller system of rotating devices....
will show more power than a car producing LESS power...spinning the rear wheels....through a larger system of rotating devices....

It can't be spelled out any more simply than that....

And if it's a hilarious rendition of "copy paste dyno readings"




http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=87

[quote]
You're the one who claimed 167 whp could never be an RSX-S. If you didn't account for the k20a2, that's your mistake not mine.
[/qoute]
How foolish of me to assume I had been in a discussion with an adult that had both common sense and intelligence. It's quite obvious how in detail you'll need every bit of information spoon fed to you in order for you to come to grasps with simple bits of information.

Are you sure that this article wasn't in relation to a 1970's mustang? How about everyone else in this thread? were they talking about old Shelby II's? I can't be sure what exactly they're talking about because no one said "Most recent iteration of the mustang"..

Good thing THAT'S cleared up.

The rest of your post is absolutely inconsequential, because you're relating it to something no one spoke of....So until you want to join the rest of the adults in the conversation and remove yourself from your adolescent pissing match of "you didn't say which one...so i'm going to place myself in the oldest model availible!"..Have fun chuckles...

[brewksy]

Originally Posted by fatoni

i never said the mustang was more fun.

just because we are using similar reasoning doesnt mean im not making sense. we are coming to different conclusions and while my conclusion was kind of supported yours wasnt. autox is only the best test for andling at the speeds in an autox. cars with more power usually need to handle at higher speeds and they give up alot .

handling doesnt equal ear to ear grins. but if you are saying if you look for the best handling, its a win...that just doesnt mean a whole lot to me. i could just as easily say, if you are looking for the greenest car, its a solid win for ford

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. Watch the video again and stop it two seconds before they give you the lap times and ask yourself which car they enjoyed *driving* more. I don't know what you're arguing about anymore...

Fun is a preference. Some people get grins over handling and feel - and this car seems to have a lot of that in this review. There is absolutely no way you can argue that what makes me grin is wrong.

That is the reason why "some" of us think this is an awesome video of praise for the BRZ. Because you can't see our perspective just means you're ignorant of other's opinions, and probably the textbook definition of fanboi.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by brewksy

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. Watch the video again and stop it two seconds before they give you the lap times and ask yourself which car they enjoyed *driving* more. I don't know what you're arguing about anymore...

Fun is a preference. Some people get grins over handling and feel - and this car seems to have a lot of that in this review. There is absolutely no way you can argue that what makes me grin is wrong.

That is the reason why "some" of us think this is an awesome video of praise for the BRZ. Because you can't see our perspective just means you're ignorant of other's opinions, and probably the textbook definition of fanboi.

it is an awesome video for the brz. i think the car gets a lot of credit here. its also an awesome viedo for the mustang. i dont think im a fanboy as i would rather have the brz in my garage but i just dont see this as a win.

[NESW20]

grip != handling