CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything!

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

does RCE re-valve konis themselves or would you liason with another shop?

also what would the process be to set the revalving up correcty? It seems not much data on FRS/BRS yet (given that the two have different rear spring rates too...)

One of the problems with Konis is that the only places that revalve them are Koni NA, True Choice, and I think Performance Shock on the west coast.

- Andy

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

What factors go into making a car progressively oversteer instead of snapping?

Do you lose that nice progressive slide on the FR-S when you switch to competitive street tires (like rs3 or z2 ss) or decent-quailty coilovers (like kw v3)?

Nice thread btw!

Originally Posted by Ninjin

I have observed that too much tire grip on stock springs can cause snap oversteer, presumably I was lifting a rear wheel, or close to lifting it. A stiffer front bar cured the snap oversteer and help to balance the car and keep the oversteer nice and progressive.

Sent from my GS4.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Too much input too quickly is my suspicion. We ran a stock BRZ with tires only for a bit, and didn't experience any snap oversteer, unless we were forcing it.

The BRZ is very, very pushy stock. If it's oversteering, it was either forced, or a driving error was made.

An unlikely explanation is that during understeer, the front tires suddenly hooked, and the rear just swung around.

I would like to add to this conversation my own experiences. My first couple of times out at the track with just about a 1.5* camber out front and Rs3 tires I was experiencing under at entry but then it will switch to over with even the slightest throttle application mid corner. This was completely eliminated after I unhooked the rear sway. I liked the way it felt, but it would bottom and wallow on long turns such as the skidpad at SoW.

Last time I was at the track I added some 1" lowering springs (swift brz)and some 245 tires that weren't as sticky. Now, the car would under at entry and under midcorner unless I really stepped on it.

Now I've added some more camber out front (-2.6) with the stock tires it would enter the turn under steering a bit and then behave fairly neutral mid corner leaning toward under. Feels very controllable for me giving me some more confidence to get on the throttle.

For a newbie like me I find it difficult to gain confidence with a loose car. A slightly under steering car is much more inspiring and I'd feel much more comfortable hanging the tail out with throttle.

[WestZ]

Originally Posted by RYU

I did forget to ask about the spring rates. It seems Bilstein might be using the stock springs for the rear based on this pic. I'll ask...

As far as I can tell, all four corners will have Bilstein springs. I'm sure they didn't bother to put springs on all four corners for the sake of making sure they show off the strut housing / shock body, but it appears the rear shocks will have progressive springs with the front struts having tapered springs.

I would like to know the rates, however.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by WestZ

As far as I can tell, all four corners will have Bilstein springs. I'm sure they didn't bother to put springs on all four corners for the sake of making sure they show off the strut housing / shock body, but it appears the rear shocks will have progressive springs with the front struts having tapered springs.

I would like to know the rates, however.

250/225 is what was used here in the states for the development that I helped on last December(2012) at Bilstein West. I got to drive that car too and toss it around, street it, you name it. Good kit.

Myles

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by ultra

I don't think that many folks in the low end of the market have the bandwidth or knowledge to figure out all of those variables on their own.

it is a sad state of affairs that someone would pay thousands of dollars for something they don't know anything about

Originally Posted by ultra

Come to think of it, how would somebody go about figuring out all of those variables themselves unless they're willing to do a whole lot of spring and shock testing on their own in addition to having a solid knowledge of advanced suspension setup and the necessary level of driving skills to understand the impact of each change?.

advanced knowledge is not necessary, but some is. When i originally got my suspension for the Golf i knew very little, but enough to get me started, i also had an engineer friend from across the country whispering into my ear.

at the time, after considerable reading, i knew that i wanted three basic things: raise stiffness all around (to fight the excessive roll on the VW), raise the heigh of the front end (to correct geometry) and stiffen the rear greater than the front. Konis were the shock of choice because they were good up to around 500lb/in springs and had some adjustability.

i had purchased a used GC coilover set and a spare set of springs, i had 10" 250, 8" 250 and 8" 500... which i switched back and forth to see whats up. In the end my car ran with the 10" 250 up front to raise it about 1" and 8" 500 in the rear to help with rotation

the konis did their job and my times seemed okay.. better than the other golfs anyway.



now for your other point

is gaining knowledge impractical? The majority of the "labour" is mental, as installing springs and shocks is generally easy (i would say alignment is the biggest bitch, and you'd generally go to a shop for that anyway). So the question is simply how much patience do you have to learn before you spend. That is all.

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

is gaining knowledge impractical? The majority of the "labour" is mental, as installing springs and shocks is generally easy (i would say alignment is the biggest bitch, and you'd generally go to a shop for that anyway). So the question is simply how much patience do you have to learn before you spend. That is all.

I think the highlighted portion is key. I do also believe that you need a two way adjustable damper to truly learn how suspension affects ride, and how exactly it functions.

For the purpose of learning, a one way damper is like getting to first base... IMO. Some people learn by application, some people learn by theory. I believe the best practice is to practice and learn via both theory AND application.

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

it is a sad state of affairs that someone would pay thousands of dollars for something they don't know anything about



advanced knowledge is not necessary, but some is. When i originally got my suspension for the Golf i knew very little, but enough to get me started, i also had an engineer friend from across the country whispering into my ear.

at the time, after considerable reading, i knew that i wanted three basic things: raise stiffness all around (to fight the excessive roll on the VW), raise the heigh of the front end (to correct geometry) and stiffen the rear greater than the front. Konis were the shock of choice because they were good up to around 500lb/in springs and had some adjustability.

i had purchased a used GC coilover set and a spare set of springs, i had 10" 250, 8" 250 and 8" 500... which i switched back and forth to see whats up. In the end my car ran with the 10" 250 up front to raise it about 1" and 8" 500 in the rear to help with rotation

the konis did their job and my times seemed okay.. better than the other golfs anyway.



now for your other point

is gaining knowledge impractical? The majority of the "labour" is mental, as installing springs and shocks is generally easy (i would say alignment is the biggest bitch, and you'd generally go to a shop for that anyway). So the question is simply how much patience do you have to learn before you spend. That is all.

Problem here, discounting all the lazy people, is all the glowing 'reviews' of crap coupled with 'motorsports' marketing. Without a good technical knowledge and highly tuned bullshit meter, it's probably really hard for newbies to make good initial decisions.

I made a suggestion for the forum a while ago about splitting Suspension into something like Introductory/Styling and Advanced/Performance. And ideally the Advanced one at least would be rather aggressively moderated to keep things sorted.

Intro would handle all the lower cost stuff, ranging from the typical slamming garbage to well put together spring kits. Plus some more of the nice FAQs like RCE has put together. If people are happy with their "drift spec" Chinese stanced coilover garbage, they can hang out and bro fist each other. If they are intrigued by a well matched spring/shock combo they can go to advanced to learn about the science behind them and higher quality options.

Problem is not offending the looks crowd...

[7thgear]

Originally Posted by Dimman

Problem is not offending the looks crowd...

pff, hardparkers can go eat an orange

[solidONE]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I think the highlighted portion is key. I do also believe that you need a two way adjustable damper to truly learn how suspension affects ride, and how exactly it functions.

For the purpose of learning, a one way damper is like getting to first base... IMO. Some people learn by application, some people learn by theory. I believe the best practice is to practice and learn via both theory AND application.

Hmm.. so playing with one knob is getting to 'first base.' What, then, would you consider second, third and home base? What about a grand slam? In terms of, ahem.., 'suspension tuning' of course.

[mike156]

This is one community that should shun hard parkers and stance nation kids. Go on EVOm and make a post about 215s on 10.5 wheels in the suspension section. Be forwarned, there will be 50 posts in 20 minutes that will range from people telling you to shoot your self to telling you to jump of a cliff and sell your evo to somebody that won't ruin it. Go in the "show n shine" section though and it's a stance nations wet dream. Ultimately, that's where it belongs as it is not a technical or performance based idea, it's purely looks.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I think the highlighted portion is key. I do also believe that you need a two way adjustable damper to truly learn how suspension affects ride, and how exactly it functions.

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

For the purpose of learning, a one way damper is like getting to first base... IMO. Some people learn by application, some people learn by theory. I believe the best practice is to practice and learn via both theory AND application.

Mike, when most mid/low end dampers have adjusters that are terrible though, how would somebody get into 2-ways to learn on them effectively? If the adjusters suck, anything you learn is likely to be wrong as you'll be seeing effects of cross-talk, valve hysteresis, and valve non-linearity and be mistaking it for what you thought was a quantified change. Also, a basic bleed valve adjuster really doesn’t have the effect you are really after anyway and it’s the valve stack that really needs to be changed to illicit the changes you are really after.

Ultimately, if a person isn't willing to spend the time to learn about how it works in theory for free (it's the internet, you can get SAE articles and books online for free all over the place, I'm not talking about forums here), they likely aren't going to spend the $3k it takes to get into a half decent 2-way adjustable setup either.

[ultra]

There point I was trying to make is simply that there's always going to be many different segments in the market for aftermarket suspension for this car.

Instead of nitpicking why doesn't somebody with a little knowledge on the subject do up an infographic which plots brands/models/types of suspension packages against performance potential/usage type (lowering, fast street, light track, light competition, professional competition) on one axis, versus price on the other?

Could make for some interesting and possibly heated discussion between folks who actually care about such things while making things pretty simple for the lazy types out there.

[7thgear]

some things cannot be explained in 140 characters or less.

furthermore, the number 1 pre-requisite of suspension tuning is understanding what you would like to change in the car's behavior... and for that you need to be a competent driver and get yourself out there.

soft and unexciting is the best setup... but try explaining that to people

[Dimman]

Originally Posted by mike156

This is one community that should shun hard parkers and stance nation kids. Go on EVOm and make a post about 215s on 10.5 wheels in the suspension section. Be forwarned, there will be 50 posts in 20 minutes that will range from people telling you to shoot your self to telling you to jump of a cliff and sell your evo to somebody that won't ruin it. Go in the "show n shine" section though and it's a stance nations wet dream. Ultimately, that's where it belongs as it is not a technical or performance based idea, it's purely looks.



Mike, when most mid/low end dampers have adjusters that are terrible though, how would somebody get into 2-ways to learn on them effectively? If the adjusters suck, anything you learn is likely to be wrong as you'll be seeing effects of cross-talk, valve hysteresis, and valve non-linearity and be mistaking it for what you thought was a quantified change. Also, a basic bleed valve adjuster really doesn’t have the effect you are really after anyway and it’s the valve stack that really needs to be changed to illicit the changes you are really after.

Ultimately, if a person isn't willing to spend the time to learn about how it works in theory for free (it's the internet, you can get SAE articles and books online for free all over the place, I'm not talking about forums here), they likely aren't going to spend the $3k it takes to get into a half decent 2-way adjustable setup either.

I'm not so sure about shunning the idiots. It's hard to distinguish them from misguided and underinformed people that may be new to the hobby. Since the twins are going to be 'My First Sportscar *TM) for a lot of people, there is a chance to hook them on the reality of good dynamics if they can be intrigued and/or educated early enough. There is a chance to grow the community's knowledge base, instead of just sending them off, tail between their legs to find acceptance in the easy lifestyle of parking your car to look cool.

However it would take some biblical level of patience to put up with the mind numbing repeating questions.

I couldn't do it.

[Calum]

Originally Posted by Dimman

I'm not so sure about shunning the idiots. It's hard to distinguish them from misguided and underinformed people that may be new to the hobby. Since the twins are going to be 'My First Sportscar *TM) for a lot of people, there is a chance to hook them on the reality of good dynamics if they can be intrigued and/or educated early enough. There is a chance to grow the community's knowledge base, instead of just sending them off, tail between their legs to find acceptance in the easy lifestyle of parking your car to look cool.

However it would take some biblical level of patience to put up with the mind numbing repeating questions.

I couldn't do it.

Man, you've been a gold mine lately.