CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything!

[thetyrant]

Originally Posted by DeaconRoc

Also, I've seen you post up on the Owners forum but you may get more responses on the driver's forum 👍

Thanks yes ive got one up there now as well

[thetyrant]

Any input from RCE and CSG on the Ohlins R&T vs Monosport welcome

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by thetyrant

Any input from RCE and CSG on the Ohlins R&T vs Monosport welcome

I wouldn't go for the Monosports if you're after a good ride over rough pavement. I don't think they're bad, but that doesn't seem to be what they were focusing on when they were designed. The set I rode on had room for improvement in terms of ride but I don't know how they were set.

I really liked the "old" Ohlins...we ran them on our own shop car for a while. I'll admit I have not tried the newer soft version but the spring rates are a disappointing especially with the limited bump travel they have. Yes you can get a car to handle well with soft springs, but those are reeeally soft. For a car on low grip tires they might make sense but if you've switched to even a decent summer tire, I would not prefer rates that soft.

I would also consider Bilstein PSS10 if you're set on coilovers. Bilstein B6 + a good spring with a mild drop might be the easy ticket as well. I'm not sure what kind of springs you can get over there.

- Andrew

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by n0thing

An old quote I came across. Can you please explain how adding a larger front sway bar (with all else being the same?) will increase the overall grip?

Thanks

A larger front swaybar will reduce roll up front, minimizing camber loss up front in a turn. So, broadly speaking you may have +2 front grip points (yes I'm making that up) from the reduced camber change and -1 front grip and +1 rear grip for the change in lateral load transfer distribution. You might shift at the limit balance slightly to understeer, but in terms of overall grip your net change in grip points might come out in your favor so that limit is higher than it was before.

That's a very simplistic way to look at it...but still useful. A larger front bar will especially help those that don't (or can't) run a lot of camber and/or run softer main springs. The faster response also "feels" good and most driver's are a little more confident when they don't have to wait as long for the front to settle into a corner. That's sometimes taken too far when people jack up the spring rates or bar sizes to the point where they're overloading their tires...

It's also important to think about the phases of a turn and the balance of the car throughout the corner. You can improve handling on entry at the expense of corner-exit (or vice versa). Sometimes that means your faster overall, sometimes not.

But I've driven plenty of poorly set up cars that both understeer and oversteer. Don't let that happen.

- Andrew

[Gforce]

Originally Posted by n0thing

From what I've read, you end up loading more weight on the other three tires when lifting an inside wheel, which has negligible grip anyways. Thus, the outside front tire has more grip for turning and the rear driven tires have more grip to power out. I suppose this applies to both autox and tracking, because physics don't change.



An old quote I came across. Can you please explain how adding a larger front sway bar (with all else being the same?) will increase the overall grip?

Thanks

It's all about tire loading. For a road car camber changes are a huge challenge because of the need for sufficient suspension travel to maintain grip over rough roads. Our uk friends know all about this problem as do the Finns, Swedes and Italians.

Were it not for rough roads the simplest solution to excessive body roll would be shorter and stiffer springs. Reduced camber change and more active weight transfer in one convenient step, until you hit the bump stops in mid corner and scare the bejeezus out of yourself.

A stiffer front bar actually transfers weight transfer from the diagonally opposite corner I.e. Stiffer front bar moves weight transfer effects away from the inside tire on the rear axle and onto the outside front tire. It does this by increasing the spring rates at the front of the car, under compression the outside lever arm of the bar gets pushed upwards and the inside lever arm also gets pushed upwards. You can see that this effectively transfers some of the spring rate from the inside spring to the outside spring, in proportion to the spring rate of the bar, ie the twist rate.

Since the bar is trying to lift the inside spring eventually, with a stiff enough bar the inside wheel lifts off the road entirely. Similar process occurs when you increase the bar rate, even box stock VW golfs lifted a rear wheel right from the original economy car release. They used a twist beam rear axle as the rear roll bar and it was quite stiff in roll.

Roll bars "unlock more grip" to paraphrase Whiteline's excellent promo tagline. But, and it is an important but, they do not create grip that the chassis doesn't already have. By reducing the range of suspension travel and confining it to a narrower window, and by increasing the rate at which the outside tire gains load the right bar can unlock grip that was inaccessible due to body roll.

Too much bar is worse than not enough.

Part of the gain available from a stiffer bar can be had "for free" by cranking in more static negative camber to begin with. McPherson struts particularly benefit from this, to a point.

Finally, note that Porsche makes its McPherson strut work so well by reducing suspension travel and fitting hefty roll bars. The ride penalty is severe compared to the BRZ stock setup.

[nikitopo]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

I really liked the "old" Ohlins...we ran them on our own shop car for a while. I'll admit I have not tried the newer soft version but the spring rates are a disappointing especially with the limited bump travel they have. Yes you can get a car to handle well with soft springs, but those are reeeally soft. For a car on low grip tires they might make sense but if you've switched to even a decent summer tire, I would not prefer rates that soft.

It depends ... Ohlins said that they are focusing now on the dampers and not so much on the springs. So, you can have much softer springs but still a suspension similar or even better than the "old" one. It looks that other manufacturers are also doing the same (e.g., Sachs). I cannot believe that some years ago Ohlins was providing a good setup and now they changed direction and provide crap just for the low grip stock tires.

[thetyrant]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

I wouldn't go for the Monosports if you're after a good ride over rough pavement. I don't think they're bad, but that doesn't seem to be what they were focusing on when they were designed. The set I rode on had room for improvement in terms of ride but I don't know how they were set.

I really liked the "old" Ohlins...we ran them on our own shop car for a while. I'll admit I have not tried the newer soft version but the spring rates are a disappointing especially with the limited bump travel they have. Yes you can get a car to handle well with soft springs, but those are reeeally soft. For a car on low grip tires they might make sense but if you've switched to even a decent summer tire, I would not prefer rates that soft.

I would also consider Bilstein PSS10 if you're set on coilovers. Bilstein B6 + a good spring with a mild drop might be the easy ticket as well. I'm not sure what kind of springs you can get over there.

- Andrew

Thanks for the input Andrew much appreciated .... it is sounding like the Monosports are not for me from what you and others have said, im hoping to get a ride in a car with them to see how they feel but im not expecting too much.

Ohlins are certainly on the list and im hoping to get some feedback from my contact there as too both the reasoning for the revised spring rates and also if the damper will take the old/higher rate without a revalve etc.

Bilstein PSS10 are also a consideration as well and hoping for a ride in a car with those also, have you found the ride good on those ?

I considered Koni dampers and some springs like yours but i think im going to stick with coilovers to fine tune things more if i can.

Ian

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by thetyrant

Thanks for the input Andrew much appreciated .... it is sounding like the Monosports are not for me from what you and others have said, im hoping to get a ride in a car with them to see how they feel but im not expecting too much.

Ohlins are certainly on the list and im hoping to get some feedback from my contact there as too both the reasoning for the revised spring rates and also if the damper will take the old/higher rate without a revalve etc.

Bilstein PSS10 are also a consideration as well and hoping for a ride in a car with those also, have you found the ride good on those ?

I considered Koni dampers and some springs like yours but i think im going to stick with coilovers to fine tune things more if i can.

Ian

The PSS10 do ride pretty well. Worth checking out IMO.

- Andrew

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

I cannot believe that some years ago Ohlins was providing a good setup and now they changed direction and provide crap just for the low grip stock tires.

Spring rate determines body roll, damping can only mask an inadequate spring rate. Even the old Ohlins were deemed too soft for most performance tires, most people running their cars on track/autox have gravitated to a 7k+ spring rate to handle <220TW tires.

Ohlins isn't providing crap, their setup just isn't for competitive driving, which is probably a better strategy for them, it's easy to forget most people don't drive this car hard at all.

There's a reason SCCA classes the stock FR-S differently than one with TRD lowering springs, the body control is a noticeable benefit that can't be mitigated with dampers which are practically open under the street class rules.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by nikitopo

It depends ... Ohlins said that they are focusing now on the dampers and not so much on the springs. So, you can have much softer springs but still a suspension similar or even better than the "old" one. It looks that other manufacturers are also doing the same (e.g., Sachs). I cannot believe that some years ago Ohlins was providing a good setup and now they changed direction and provide crap just for the low grip stock tires.

True but springs and dampers perform different functions.

I think there was a shift in focus but that shift was to move things closer to the "road" part of the spectrum rather than the "track" part of the spectrum in the Ohlins R&T name. Nothing wrong with that, just IMO they might have moved a little too far to the R.

EDIT: and this is a good discussion! I do in general prefer a somewhat softer set-up than others. Dampers can be tuned in such a way to work with that, and it can be awesome for a fast and fun street car. And bonus, it's usually a little easier to drive quickly. But with stickier tires you will have some compromises and firmer springs will be faster.

- Andrew

[Shark_Bait88]

Originally Posted by thetyrant

Thanks for the input Andrew much appreciated .... it is sounding like the Monosports are not for me from what you and others have said, im hoping to get a ride in a car with them to see how they feel but im not expecting too much.

Ohlins are certainly on the list and im hoping to get some feedback from my contact there as too both the reasoning for the revised spring rates and also if the damper will take the old/higher rate without a revalve etc.

Bilstein PSS10 are also a consideration as well and hoping for a ride in a car with those also, have you found the ride good on those ?

I considered Koni dampers and some springs like yours but i think im going to stick with coilovers to fine tune things more if i can.

Ian

You might also want to check out the single adjustable coilovers from SACHS. Similar price and design to the Bilsteins, but I believe slightly stiffer spring rates. Front springs are linear and rears are progressive on the SACHS, whereas the Bilsteins are progressive in both the front and rear. I had them on my car for a year and really liked them. Felt great for daily driving, even on the garbage roads around Chicago, and performed pretty well during several track days and autocross events.

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Shark_Bait88

You might also want to check out the single adjustable coilovers from SACHS. Similar price and design to the Bilsteins, but I believe slightly stiffer spring rates. Front springs are linear and rears are progressive on the SACHS, whereas the Bilsteins are progressive in both the front and rear. I had them on my car for a year and really liked them. Felt great for daily driving, even on the garbage roads around Chicago, and performed pretty well during several track days and autocross events.

Those too. I haven't tried them but they sound like a good kit.

- Andrew

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by Gforce

Interestingly not so. You need to consider tire loading effects.

Taking a tire off the road diminishes your traction by 25%.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Tokay444

Taking a tire off the road diminishes your traction by 25%.

OH Shit, you just found Mclaren's problems!




In theory, you're right, in practice no car goes around a corner with all four tires equally loaded, it's nigh on impossible, many fast cars lift an inside tire, there is often little benefit keeping that tire on the ground mid-corner. Rather it's better to have suspension compliance to maximize grip on the important tires in the important phases of the corner. A suspension stiff enough to keep all four tires on the ground in the hardest corner is likely to get upset by pavement irregularities and lose more time over a circuit than than a softer setup that lifts a wheel.

The Civic is on display here, but note the RX-7's actually lift their front wheels off the ground on corner exit as well.


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9bQ1UGLLLg"]Honda Civic Vs Mazda RX8 13BPP - YouTube[/ame]