CSG and RCE tag-team suspension Q&A thread! Ask us anything!

[RYU]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

anyone have any inside info if Bilstein is gonna be making damper inserts or full struts for our cars?

I've recently taken a ride in a prototype B14 brought into the US by the US Division of Bilstein. It's on a local owner's BRZ now rolling around LA.

It's highest on my list right now but unless Myles/Andy or CSG can convince the Germans there is a US market for a good coilover that gives a mild max drop of say 20-25mm, they WILL NOT be offering this in the US.

They must all think we're all hellaflush/stance guys over here. What a shame.

I don't think they can offer satisfactory performance on anything lower due to the short rear shock travel constraints. That's what I gather.

As far as the ride.. it's very interesting. In layman's terms...You really do feel every single bump on the road. More so than the OEM setup probably (it's been so long since I was on OEM suspension) but as a compromise it is very compliant on the big bumps which is a huge huge issue on the coilovers i've ridden in and installed.. The Bils do not feel like the rear suspension being "bump stop" happy like in every other coilover in its price range...

The set I experienced is not the off-the-shelf B14 Euro Spec. It's been reworked for the US streets based on the Bilstein engineer's satisfaction.

Myles/Andy and CSG will have much more inside information since they're likely in contact with the Bilstein engineers directly.

Someone convince these guys there's a US market for these. Please bring over the B16! I promise I won't lower my car more than 25mm LOL

I did forget to ask about the spring rates. It seems Bilstein might be using the stock springs for the rear based on this pic. I'll ask...

[RYU]

My issue with the GC is a legacy issue. Had them on two cars and the noise was AWFUL. Hope they fixed it by now. I'm just not willing to try them anymore. Someone else can...

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by RYU

I've recently taken a ride in a prototype B14 brought into the US by the US Division of Bilstein. It's on a local owner's BRZ now rolling around LA.

It's highest on my list right now but unless Myles/Andy or CSG can convince the Germans there is a US market for a good coilover that gives a mild max drop of say 20-25mm, they WILL NOT be offering this in the US.

They must all think we're all hellaflush/stance guys over here. What a shame.

I don't think they can offer satisfactory performance on anything lower due to the short rear shock travel constraints. That's what I gather.

As far as the ride.. it's very interesting. In layman's terms...You really do feel every single bump on the road. More so than the OEM setup probably (it's been so long since I was on OEM suspension) but as a compromise it is very compliant on the big bumps which is a huge huge issue on the coilovers i've ridden in and installed.. The Bils do not feel like the rear suspension being "bump stop" happy like in every other coilover in its price range...

The set I experienced is not the off-the-shelf B14 Euro Spec. It's been reworked for the US streets based on the Bilstein engineer's satisfaction.

Myles/Andy and CSG will have much more inside information since they're likely in contact with the Bilstein engineers directly.

Someone convince these guys there's a US market for these. Please bring over the B16! I promise I won't lower my car more than 25mm LOL

I did forget to ask about the spring rates. It seems Bilstein might be using the stock springs for the rear based on this pic. I'll ask...

We are close with Bilstein and working on it...things often move slowly but are worth the wait.

Your observations on the Bilstein are right in line with what I was expecting.

The Koni Yellow twintube vs Bilstein monotube "debate" or whatever you'd like to call it IMO comes down to the Koni being smoother over small bumps and harsher over big bumps, while with the Bilstein you feel more of the small stuff but it soaks up big bumps really really well. A monotube with gas pressure and "platform" are awesome on the track though.

- Andy

[7thgear]

so if we're to go from off-shelf stuff

bilstein for track
koni for autocross?

[Ninjin]

My experience with the Koni twin tube was similar.

I would say it kept the tire on the ground better over rough pavement, leading to better traction on those surfaces.

Sent from my GS4.

[RYU]

normally, and on a different car, i'd say give me one that will handle the small/med bumps better, but on the BRZ.. man.. anything to get rid of the feeling like my head is about to hit the roof when I go over big Freeway expansion joints.

[7thgear]

does anyone know of anyone (and sorry for not keeping up if this was referenceed) that has had their Koni Yellows re-valved specificly to the OEM springs of an FRS/BRZ specifically for autocross use?

looking back at my experiences with the VW, i was never really "wowed" by the Konis, maybe i didn't know what to look for at the time, i simply went out and drove. I was in a small class so it was difficult to gauge myself.


all this as part of my plan for stock class next year.

also, when we're talking about koni, their site refrences 8610 and 8611 race-series damper inserts... do we have a bit more real life expeirence with them?

[DarkSunrise]

What factors go into making a car progressively oversteer instead of snapping?

Do you lose that nice progressive slide on the FR-S when you switch to competitive street tires (like rs3 or z2 ss) or decent-quailty coilovers (like kw v3)?

Nice thread btw!

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by 7thgear

so if we're to go from off-shelf stuff

bilstein for track
koni for autocross?

IMO both are decent shocks. The Bilstein vs. Koni debate gets lost in the fact that both are good, and a good twin-tube is better than a crappy monotube (and vice versa). Also, a good non-adjustable is better than a crappy adjustable.

Bilstein has more potential for the track or auto-x IMO...BUT are non-adjustable so you're stuck (or ideally you got them custom valved really well). Not talking about adjustable PSS9 or PSS10 here.

Koni are usually better out of the box and adjustable whereas you might need to have your Bilsteins custom valved. Konis can be custom valved too but its a lot more expensive.

If anything I'd prefer Bilstein for autocross with a lot of gas pressure....

For strictly ride quality, it depends on your roads. For me I'd prefer Bilsteins since there are a lot of BIG bumps where I live. However, I have Koni Yellows on my car and I'm happy.

- Andy

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise

What factors go into making a car progressively oversteer instead of snapping?

Do you lose that nice progressive slide on the FR-S when you switch to competitive street tires (like rs3 or z2 ss) or decent-quailty coilovers (like kw v3)?

Nice thread btw!

The largest factor is the driver.

Barring that: Weight balance, weight transfer speed, grip balance between front and rear, aero profile depending on the speed, the list can go on for a LONG time.

The nice progressive slide is inherent to the platform, and will always be there. It can get a lot more difficult to get the car TO slide, if you add a ton of grip, but the manner in which the car slides will not really change unless you make major changes to the car itself.

[Ninjin]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The largest factor is the driver.

Barring that: Weight balance, weight transfer speed, grip balance between front and rear, aero profile depending on the speed, the list can go on for a LONG time.

The nice progressive slide is inherent to the platform, and will always be there. It can get a lot more difficult to get the car TO slide, if you add a ton of grip, but the manner in which the car slides will not really change unless you make major changes to the car itself.

I have observed that too much tire grip on stock springs can cause snap oversteer, presumably I was lifting a rear wheel, or close to lifting it. A stiffer front bar cured the snap oversteer and help to balance the car and keep the oversteer nice and progressive.

Sent from my GS4.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

The largest factor is the driver.

Barring that: Weight balance, weight transfer speed, grip balance between front and rear, aero profile depending on the speed, the list can go on for a LONG time.

The nice progressive slide is inherent to the platform, and will always be there. It can get a lot more difficult to get the car TO slide, if you add a ton of grip, but the manner in which the car slides will not really change unless you make major changes to the car itself.

Thanks! I find the FR-S very easy to catch right now exiting turns under power in low/mid-speed corners, and don't want to ruin that. Sounds like it has more to do with the platform (or perhaps lack of power ) than tire choice or springs/struts.

[7thgear]

does RCE re-valve konis themselves or would you liason with another shop?

also what would the process be to set the revalving up correcty? It seems not much data on FRS/BRS yet (given that the two have different rear spring rates too...)

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Ninjin

I have observed that too much tire grip on stock springs can cause snap oversteer, presumably I was lifting a rear wheel, or close to lifting it. A stiffer front bar cured the snap oversteer and help to balance the car and keep the oversteer nice and progressive.

Sent from my GS4.

Too much input too quickly is my suspicion. We ran a stock BRZ with tires only for a bit, and didn't experience any snap oversteer, unless we were forcing it.

The BRZ is very, very pushy stock. If it's oversteering, it was either forced, or a driving error was made.

An unlikely explanation is that during understeer, the front tires suddenly hooked, and the rear just swung around.