Harrop TVS86 Owners Thread

[Trefoil]

Originally Posted by Bfranklyn86

Thanks for that. I like the sound of the JR duel radiator but, reading through the thread, do you think it would be worth me ordering my own 'non-kink' lines?

Also, could you envisage any issues fitting it with a Harrop kit already installed?

The way things are going I'll be getting this fitted just in time for winter!

I happen to have it with my Harrop Supercharger and without any issues. Their lines do not kink if you properly clock everything.

[armstrom]

Can anyone share experience with different header options? I know Harrop suggest the ACE 400 but considering that's three times the price of the popular Gruppe-S UEL header... Is it REALLY that much better? I'm currently bone stock aside from the Harrop kit so I'm looking to take the next step. Headers seem to be the best option. I've been looking at catted options since I would prefer not to have obnoxious rasp and drone. However, I'm not sold on the idea that a catted setup will provide any significant gains over stock. Yes, I know there are dozens of threads out there debating the merits of different header setups but I'm curious what would be the best match for this kit and a stock header-back exhaust.

Thanks!

[Trefoil]

Originally Posted by armstrom

Can anyone share experience with different header options? I know Harrop suggest the ACE 400 but considering that's three times the price of the popular Gruppe-S UEL header... Is it REALLY that much better? I'm currently bone stock aside from the Harrop kit so I'm looking to take the next step. Headers seem to be the best option. I've been looking at catted options since I would prefer not to have obnoxious rasp and drone. However, I'm not sold on the idea that a catted setup will provide any significant gains over stock. Yes, I know there are dozens of threads out there debating the merits of different header setups but I'm curious what would be the best match for this kit and a stock header-back exhaust.

Thanks!

I'm running the PTuning header without issue. I can't really say it's a "better" option pricewise when you're looking at least 1k for a header, but the power is there. A header does not matter as much in SC FI applications over NA applications. JDL does have an EL header that Michelle Abbate used at the track professionally until she switched recently to the Ace Header.

[johan]

Originally Posted by armstrom

Can anyone share experience with different header options? I know Harrop suggest the ACE 400 but considering that's three times the price of the popular Gruppe-S UEL header... Is it REALLY that much better? I'm currently bone stock aside from the Harrop kit so I'm looking to take the next step. Headers seem to be the best option. I've been looking at catted options since I would prefer not to have obnoxious rasp and drone. However, I'm not sold on the idea that a catted setup will provide any significant gains over stock. Yes, I know there are dozens of threads out there debating the merits of different header setups but I'm curious what would be the best match for this kit and a stock header-back exhaust.

Thanks!

The Tomei UEL will make the same power as the ACE with more mid range torque. If you don't mind the UEL sound (some people are passionately against it), it doesn't make the stock exhaust raspy or droney. I've had the same Tomei on two different 86's over the last couple years.

Do not run a header with a cat on it. I'm kinda surprised you're running the SC with the stock header. It's a really bad idea. A close coupled cat is terrible with a supercharger and can be dangerous for both the cat and the motor (the EGTs skyrocket). I would recommend swapping out the stock header asap.

[Irace86.2.0]

Originally Posted by johan

The Tomei UEL will make the same power as the ACE with more mid range torque. If you don't mind the UEL sound (some people are passionately against it), it doesn't make the stock exhaust raspy or droney. I've had the same Tomei on two different 86's over the last couple years.

Do not run a header with a cat on it. I'm kinda surprised you're running the SC with the stock header. It's a really bad idea. A close coupled cat is terrible with a supercharger and can be dangerous for both the cat and the motor (the EGTs skyrocket). I would recommend swapping out the stock header asap.

Would an aftermarket catted (high flow) header have the same effect?

[The Racers Line]

Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0

Would an aftermarket catted (high flow) header have the same effect?

Catted headers, even "high flow" are terrible on this car.

[The Racers Line]

Originally Posted by armstrom

Can anyone share experience with different header options? I know Harrop suggest the ACE 400 but considering that's three times the price of the popular Gruppe-S UEL header... Is it REALLY that much better? I'm currently bone stock aside from the Harrop kit so I'm looking to take the next step. Headers seem to be the best option. I've been looking at catted options since I would prefer not to have obnoxious rasp and drone. However, I'm not sold on the idea that a catted setup will provide any significant gains over stock. Yes, I know there are dozens of threads out there debating the merits of different header setups but I'm curious what would be the best match for this kit and a stock header-back exhaust.

Thanks!

If you are looking for the absolute peak most power, then ACE is THE header, however, if it isn't in your budget, there are plenty of others that will deliver a nice bump in power with/or without being paired with a supercharger. You should choose one then, for the sound you want, and the build quality.

As far as I know, ACE, JDL and PTUNING are the only header manufactures that build a header specifically for FI, that is why they are typically recommended; in the case of Harrop, they run an ACE header on their time attack car with good results.

[armstrom]

Originally Posted by The Racers Line

As far as I know, ACE, JDL and PTUNING are the only header manufactures that build a header specifically for FI, that is why they are typically recommended; in the case of Harrop, they run an ACE header on their time attack car with good results.

Can you elaborate a bit on how a header is built for forced induction? I understand the changes you would make for a turbo manifold (shorter runners for faster spool, divided/undivided flange, wastegate plumbing, etc...) but I've never heard such things applied to a supercharger build. My understanding is that generally superchargers will respond to exhaust mods in a similar way to NA.
-Matt

[Trefoil]

Originally Posted by armstrom

Can you elaborate a bit on how a header is built for forced induction? I understand the changes you would make for a turbo manifold (shorter runners for faster spool, divided/undivided flange, wastegate plumbing, etc...) but I've never heard such things applied to a supercharger build. My understanding is that generally superchargers will respond to exhaust mods in a similar way to NA.
-Matt

Better Volumetric Efficiency = better FI and NA performance. The main way to optimize VE change on this car is to ditch the crummy stock design for an optimized header system.

[Kodename47]

Originally Posted by armstrom

Can you elaborate a bit on how a header is built for forced induction? I understand the changes you would make for a turbo manifold (shorter runners for faster spool, divided/undivided flange, wastegate plumbing, etc...) but I've never heard such things applied to a supercharger build. My understanding is that generally superchargers will respond to exhaust mods in a similar way to NA.
-Matt

As above, you design a manifold for the amount of exhaust gas flow. With forced induction there will be a greater volume of gas to get out the exhaust and thus the optimal design would take this into account. It is essentially what most aftermarket ones would do, hence they benefit N/A and FI but a design suited to a ~250bhp engine would not necessarily be optimal for one running +100bhp again. Is it likely to be a big gain, probably not but if you like to get every last bit of power then you could get one to fit your build.

[armstrom]

Originally Posted by Kodename47

As above, you design a manifold for the amount of exhaust gas flow. With forced induction there will be a greater volume of gas to get out the exhaust and thus the optimal design would take this into account. It is essentially what most aftermarket ones would do, hence they benefit N/A and FI but a design suited to a ~250bhp engine would not necessarily be optimal for one running +100bhp again. Is it likely to be a big gain, probably not but if you like to get every last bit of power then you could get one to fit your build.

Yes, I understand those fundamentals. I guess I'm just trying to understand what I would be leaving on the table by going with something like a Tomei/Gruppe-S UEL header that "isn't optimized for FI" vs something like an ACE CS400. I can't find any direct evidence that the CS400 has any specific optimizations for forced induction beyond the optimizations it has for NA applications. If the extra ~$850 for the ACE over the Grupee-S is buying me maybe 4-5 HP peak and a different exhaust note, then that helps me make my decision.

Perhaps I should provide some context: My car is bone stock aside from the Harrop SC kit (w/ 90mm pulley rather than the 95mm) and a Delicious F&G Ecutek tune. The next logical step seems to be a header so I'm weighing my options but can't find much in the way of real world comparisons between different headers in supercharged applications. I understand Harrop run the CS400 and recommend it, but that's quite vague. If something is "optimized" for a specific setup it would be nice to know HOW it is optimized.. what benefit does it provide over some, presumably, "less" optimized options.

[Trefoil]

Originally Posted by armstrom

Yes, I understand those fundamentals. I guess I'm just trying to understand what I would be leaving on the table by going with something like a Tomei/Gruppe-S UEL header that "isn't optimized for FI" vs something like an ACE CS400. I can't find any direct evidence that the CS400 has any specific optimizations for forced induction beyond the optimizations it has for NA applications. If the extra ~$850 for the ACE over the Grupee-S is buying me maybe 4-5 HP peak and a different exhaust note, then that helps me make my decision.

Perhaps I should provide some context: My car is bone stock aside from the Harrop SC kit (w/ 90mm pulley rather than the 95mm) and a Delicious F&G Ecutek tune. The next logical step seems to be a header so I'm weighing my options but can't find much in the way of real world comparisons between different headers in supercharged applications. I understand Harrop run the CS400 and recommend it, but that's quite vague. If something is "optimized" for a specific setup it would be nice to know HOW it is optimized.. what benefit does it provide over some, presumably, "less" optimized options.

My understanding is that with SC, optimized headers do not serve a purpose other than handling the increased airflow. In a turbo application, you naturally want as efficient thermal and pulse routing as possible to impart more energy into the turbine side. With a supercharger, that pulse and thermal energy is just dumped over the side of the platform to come out as noise, just like NA applications do.

I don't think it's warranted to fret over the difference between $600 vs $1500 headers if you're looking at a budget and using the vehicle for personal enjoyment.

[Hags86]

Originally Posted by armstrom

Can anyone share experience with different header options? I know Harrop suggest the ACE400....
Thanks!

Happy to be proven wrong by anyone but my understanding is Harrop recommend the ACE400 because in Australia (where they are based) the ACE350 will not fit our RHD cars. You appear to be based in the US so the ACE350 is the better choice.

I did some research on the Harrop and the advice I got was the 350 is best as it has the best balance of low end torque and power at higher revs: but doesn't fit my RHD vehicle. So had the choice of either better high-end revs (ACE250) or better low end torque (ACE400).

ACE use the overpipe to extend the distance before the 2:1 merge on the 4:2:1 design. I don't have first hand experience on how big a difference this makes though, but that is the principle. In terms of cost remember this includes the overpipe so when you do your $ for $ comparison you should include the cost of an overpipe in the equation.

(sources: conversations with Harrop, emails with Delicious and forum post with CSG).

[armstrom]

Originally Posted by Hags86

Happy to be proven wrong by anyone but my understanding is Harrop recommend the ACE400 because in Australia (where they are based) the ACE350 will not fit our RHD cars. You appear to be based in the US so the ACE350 is the better choice.

I did some research on the Harrop and the advice I got was the 350 is best as it has the best balance of low end torque and power at higher revs: but doesn't fit my RHD vehicle. So had the choice of either better high-end revs (ACE250) or better low end torque (ACE400).

ACE use the overpipe to extend the distance before the 2:1 merge on the 4:2:1 design. I don't have first hand experience on how big a difference this makes though, but that is the principle. In terms of cost remember this includes the overpipe so when you do your $ for $ comparison you should include the cost of an overpipe in the equation.

(sources: conversations with Harrop, emails with Delicious and forum post with CSG).

From what I can tell the 350 is not available any more. CSG has them listed but they are priced almost $300 more than the CS400. The ACE web site doesn't even list it any more.
-Matt