Handling Setup - Oversteer vs. Understeer

[Element Tuning]

Like the Pros I also found there was too much oversteer in the stock setup. I think the difference in really fast drivers, no offense, is that they carry a ton more momentum and it's the rear stepping out at high speed steady state cornering.

Easily fixed with suspension mods. I also like to get on the gas early and drive through the apex so I prefer a ton of rear grip but I also want a ton of front grip. LOL!

Anyways a happy driver is a fast driver

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Like the Pros I also found there was too much oversteer in the stock setup.

What the...

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Like the Pros I also found there was too much oversteer in the stock setup. I think the difference in really fast drivers, no offense, is that they carry a ton more momentum and it's the rear stepping out at high speed steady state cornering.

Easily fixed with suspension mods. I also like to get on the gas early and drive through the apex so I prefer a ton of rear grip but I also want a ton of front grip. LOL!

Anyways a happy driver is a fast driver

What am I doing wrong if I'm complaining of understeer at 90mph, WOT?

[Element Tuning]

What did I hurt some feelings or something? I agree with Rand Pobst and Sam the stock FRS suspension has too much oversteer and explained under which circumstance I notice it. Sure I can plow through a turn and induce understeer but that's not the point. When driving for a fast lap I could get the car to turn in faster than I could get the rear to hold mid corner.

We are still talking about stock setup right?

[Element Tuning]

Also a lot of what's being discussed is subjective and how a driver likes the car to "feel." That however doesn't always net the fastest lap. There are things I have done to make my car faster around the track that really didn't feel better to me but the transponder does not lie nor does the data.

I'm not singling out anyone's driving as I don't know any of you but amateur drivers induce more sudden pitch changes which upsets front grip. Overloading and sudden underloading the front tires is really common which induces more understeer.

[Element Tuning]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

What am I doing wrong if I'm complaining of understeer at 90mph, WOT?

Mike, try 89 mph!

[Element Tuning]

[quote=solidONE;2329857]

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Also a lot of what's being discussed is subjective and how a driver likes the car to "feel." That however doesn't always net the fastest lap. There are things I have done to make my car faster around the track that really didn't feel better to me but the transponder does not lie nor does the data.

I'm not singling out anyone's driving as I don't know any of you but amateur drivers induce more sudden pitch changes which upsets front grip. Overloading and sudden underloading the front tires is really common which induces more understeer.[/QUOTE]

This. I think that why a lot of us newbs will get understeer entering the turn then oversteer exiting on the FR-S suspension. What's the solution? slow steering input at turn in?

I am no driving coach but I have been coached and my driving data analyzed so I can provide some input. Your driving instructor or coach will help you the most!

Just remember the basics and that's tire contact patch management! In general, smooth on and smooth off so try to smoothly release the brakes as you trail brake into your turn (novices don't trail brake much so the front end is too light) . This keeps weight on the front to help turn in grip. There is a fine line here as releasing the brakes suddenly causes understeer (unloads front tires) and so does too much braking (overloads front tires).

As you release the brakes and get the car turned in, the weight transfers to the rear. Too much throttle before the weight has transfered results in oversteer and you won't get the best drive through the apex. Apply throttle smoothly to transfer more weight to the rear in the effort to get wot. If you didn't turn in and get the car pointed optimally you could end up with mid-corner push (turning too much through the apex or you turned in too early).

That's the basics but drivers often have to drive around a bad setup. A really experienced driver with good setup knowledge will know this and work towards getting the car setup better. A better setup will allow for more aggressive inputs.

Hope that helps but work with your instructor as they should see where you can improve.

[solidONE]

Well, I do trail brake into turns. It's a habit I picked up riding motorcycles. Maybe carry too much brake into the turns.

[Element Tuning]

Motorcycle rider/racer, that's your problem. You are used to manipulating your body and weighting your footers to get the motorcycle to do what you want it to. You no longer have this ability in a car regardless of how much you move around in your seat

Also most motocross or sport bikes these days are basically racing machines unless your passenger car. It's just at a different level. Look at my FRS and compare it to yours.

Just because I can enter an exit a corner 10 mph faster doesn't mean you can to. You'll just understeer your car at entry. My point is that you need to slow it down until you can get the car turned in. Every car will understeer if you never brake or lift for your turn. LOL! You can't ask it to do what it's not capable of and that's why we modify our suspension

Trust me it's so frustrating to be patient and even I struggle with it. Pretty much I run through the entire sweep from understeer at entry, oversteer at entry, mid-corner understeer, and exit oversteer each race day until I find the optimal speed I can do each component of a corner at. That's when I achieve my fastest lap or I work to improve the car setup.


I have pages and pages of setup notes, tire pressures, clicker settings, sway bars, spring rates, alignment.........

[zdr93523]

Originally Posted by solidONE

This. I think that why a lot of us newbs will get understeer entering the turn then oversteer exiting on the FR-S suspension. What's the solution? slow steering input at turn in?

Too high corner entry speed is a common mistake that induces severe understeer, reduces mid-corner and exit speed, and can result in corner exit oversteer attempting to correct the understeer or line through the corner and exit.

It had been quite a while, but over the past few weeks I tracked a few bone stock (except brake fluid) FRS and BRZ and they were perfectly balanced with the proper driving techniques and smooth inputs. I had forgotten how good these cars were stock.

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by sw20kosh

What the...

Here's the thread where Sam Strano (14x AutoX champ or something) went into how much he dislikes the car's "oversteery" nature stock:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23166

He hasn't logged in for nearly a year so I don't know if his views have changed but he's selling some basic components on his shop site so I'm sure you could call him up and give him a chat, seems like a giving guy from his posts unless he feels attacked or you're going after his secrets.

Many journalists parroted the Toyobaru press junkets saying that the FR-S had suspension tuning to be more "lively" and "driftable" than the BRZ (backed up by the known spring rates between the two shown here)
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8739
(Note that the BRZ is still rear stiff)

And then Pobst commented in an early review that the rear of the BRZ felt more planted than that of the FR-S:

I like the Subaru better, primarily because it's less loose on entry.

It has a more even balance, front to rear. It has more of an on-rails feeling than a rotating feeling. In the Scion, you feel the back move almost before the front. In the Subaru, it's more one-piece.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz3ganZEn9s

Which, going through and reading the rest of his comments, does not seem to jive with what we know of the car, notably the steering feel and engine should be identical as the components are grabbed off the same assembly line any difference would be part of manufacturing tolerance and variation which should be very tight on both those particular systems. Note that this review was not 2 months after the cars were on dealer lots. I have a hunch the order he drove the cars in may have been influential in his assessments.

As mentioned in several posts, amateur drivers can induce a lot of understeer with bad technique (primarily coming in too hot and too hard on the brakes, overworking the front tires at turn-in) as well as oversteer (lead foot on exit to compensate for lost speed on entry) which I have absolutely done with this car.

The thing is, I've rarely been surprised by the oversteer events, and I am constantly surprised when I put my foot down and the car just pushes or washes away from me as I feed in the throttle during a steady state corner, hence my view that the car understeers stock. But I'm just a nub so there's that, a lot of it has to do with how I can easily identify driver induced oversteer but it's trickier for me to nail down what I've done to induce understeer.

I'm mostly happy that I seem to be getting better for the most part, I need to sit an instructor down next to me and/or have a qualified person drive my car to break the next barrier but a bunch of seattime is hopefully coming my way over the next 6 weeks.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

Here's the thread where Sam Strano (14x AutoX champ or something) went into how much he dislikes the car's "oversteery" nature stock:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23166

He hasn't logged in for nearly a year so I don't know if his views have changed but he's selling some basic components on his shop site so I'm sure you could call him up and give him a chat, seems like a giving guy from his posts unless he feels attacked or you're going after his secrets.

Many journalists parroted the Toyobaru press junkets saying that the FR-S had suspension tuning to be more "lively" and "driftable" than the BRZ (backed up by the known spring rates between the two shown here)
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8739
(Note that the BRZ is still rear stiff)

And then Pobst commented in an early review that the rear of the BRZ felt more planted than that of the FR-S:



http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz3ganZEn9s

Which, going through and reading the rest of his comments, does not seem to jive with what we know of the car, notably the steering feel and engine should be identical as the components are grabbed off the same assembly line any difference would be part of manufacturing tolerance and variation which should be very tight on both those particular systems. Note that this review was not 2 months after the cars were on dealer lots. I have a hunch the order he drove the cars in may have been influential in his assessments.

As mentioned in several posts, amateur drivers can induce a lot of understeer with bad technique (primarily coming in too hot and too hard on the brakes, overworking the front tires at turn-in) as well as oversteer (lead foot on exit to compensate for lost speed on entry) which I have absolutely done with this car.

The thing is, I've rarely been surprised by the oversteer events, and I am constantly surprised when I put my foot down and the car just pushes or washes away from me as I feed in the throttle during a steady state corner, hence my view that the car understeers stock. But I'm just a nub so there's that, a lot of it has to do with how I can easily identify driver induced oversteer but it's trickier for me to nail down what I've done to induce understeer.

I'm mostly happy that I seem to be getting better for the most part, I need to sit an instructor down next to me and/or have a qualified person drive my car to break the next barrier but a bunch of seattime is hopefully coming my way over the next 6 weeks.

The car absolutely pushes in stock config during steady state cornering. Dunno what people are doing that makes them think this is an oversteer car stock.

Maybe they are not used to rwd cars.

[CSG David]

Track and autocross setups are mutually exclusive setups. Wheel to wheel settings are also slightly different as well. Car setup is developed according to application and driving style too. Some can't handle the wiggly butt and some can't stand the push. Cars generally come "understeery" from the factory to add a level of "safety" to the setup. It also helps those who are inexperienced to improve their skills at a good rate rather than trial by fire like the S2k.

My personal opinion is not the norm, but people who rode shotgun understand it based on rides I've given. The way I drive (on film) is incredibly boring but one would observe that I use minimal steering angle while manipulating the car via pedal work. The car is setup accordingly to make that happen of course, but different suspension setups require different driving styles to extract the most out of the car. Transmission, differential, and engine are all treated with respect. If the boss says to shave off time, the level of conservative-ness is cut back accordingly to make things happen.

One example I like to give is, Bob Endicott's driving style in his S2k reflects closer/similar to how S2k Challenge drivers drive, but would be considered "wild" when compared to other S2k owners. His suspension setup on his personal car, however, is very autocross specific with the exception of his special Motons with tailored spring rates and Ankeny sway bars, which allows him to change the balance within seconds. Guy Ankeny is a suspension guru and we admire him greatly for his work. For the record, Endicott is a 6 time National autocross champion and has quite a few road races under his belt as well.

Sam Strano is a great driver as well, but his success is also based on his skill of setup and how he drives. How Sam Strano drives may not necessarily mean you can do the same. Likewise, Bob Endicott's driving skill reflects 50 years of driving experience vs. everyone else. Strano and Endicott both have modes of driving and setup finesse that are significantly more refined than average beings can imagine. That's why they are National champs and well respected.

If you're local in the area, come out to 86CUP and check out the way people setup their cars and drive. Everyone has a different setup and driving style, which makes it incredibly fun and exciting.

[DarkSunrise]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

Strano has a different background, which is where his preference comes from.

Randy has a preference for cars that are easy to drive and are forgiving to large, harsh inputs.

You've discovered that you actually like having more slip angle. Keep exploring deeper in that direction; you'll discover that at some point, there's TOO much slip and it'll start slowing you down. Until then, the only way to figure that out is to keep experimenting.

You're starting to see the light as to my particular driving preferences

@sw20kosh can elaborate on a few tricks I've shown him that are used to intentionally induce controlled rotation which result in significantly faster lap times.

I do think (for the moment) this car setup is working for me. The car turns in how I expect, rotates when I ask it to, and allows me to carry a small slip angle to the track out point. I'll have to see how things feel with fresh tires and as my driving technique develops. I've just started progressing from intermediate to advanced HDPE groups, so obviously still a relative newb with a lot to learn (especially compared to guys who've been doing this for many years/decades or get paid to drive). I'm sure my preferences for car setup will change, although I can't tell which direction yet.

Originally Posted by Element Tuning

Like the Pros I also found there was too much oversteer in the stock setup. I think the difference in really fast drivers, no offense, is that they carry a ton more momentum and it's the rear stepping out at high speed steady state cornering.

Easily fixed with suspension mods. I also like to get on the gas early and drive through the apex so I prefer a ton of rear grip but I also want a ton of front grip. LOL!

Anyways a happy driver is a fast driver

Haha no offense taken at all. This was actually the reason I started this thread, to hear about different driving styles and learn.

I like your description of getting on the gas early and driving through the apex. Apologies if I over-simplify this, but it sounds like you sacrifice a little entry speed for better mid-corner and exit speed, basically powering through apex into the exit. There are times when I've slightly overslowed for a corner (relative to my normal entry speed) and end up adding a bit more throttle from apex into the exit. I can see how this could be faster especially if the corner leads to a straight. Good stuff to think about before my next track event, thanks!