Tesla banned from being sold in multiple states

[strat61caster]

Originally Posted by Rampage

Thanks, I had not seen the C&D article. It still points out that the Dealer Associations are the one behind it.

No argument that the push is from the privately owned dealerships, that does not change GM's backwardness and current public position, no other manufacturers have taken sides to my knowledge.

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/n...1-hb-5066.html

DETROIT – The following statement is attributable to a GM spokesperson:

“General Motors applauds Governor Snyder's signing of HB 5606. This will provide stability and support for our dealers, who are focused on delivering a world-class sales and service experience for our customers. Further, it will ensure we compete under the same rules in the marketplace as other automobile manufacturers.”

[calmtigers]

I think they're threatened by how low cost these tesla dealerships are in comparison (ones I've seen in west la are essentially stores where you go in and customize).

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by [B

strat61caster[/B] ]..."Further, it will ensure we compete under the same rules in the marketplace as other automobile manufacturers.”

I think this is the key part for GM, and the other manufacturers. I'm sure GM/Ford/etc... would love nothing better than to be able to sell direct to consumers over the interwebs. To do that though, they need a level playing field and to be released from the restraints of not having to compete with franchisees.

Unfortunately, like any franchise organizations, the auto companies made this bed when they decided to franchise their business rather than growing it themselves.

Tesla does have an unfair advantage in this case, and really is skirting the "law" in some of these areas just because they are considered "cool" somehow. I liken it to how Apple manages to "force" you to use the iTunes store for purchases but if Microsoft insisted on the same model, they would be beaten in to a pile of legal pulp.

I should add, I am no fan of this legislation. Despite having a father-in-law who is a 40 year career car salesman (or maybe because of it!) I have no love lost for auto dealers. I would much rather configure and order the car right off of the manufacturers website, and have it delivered to my house by UPS.

[MokSpeed]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

[/I]
I would much rather configure and order the car right off of the manufacturers website, and have it delivered to my house by UPS.

Would be pretty funny to see a car-sized UPS box sitting in front of your door way if you weren't home. Imagine how long the unboxing and unwrapping process would be for that package!

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by MokSpeed

Would be pretty funny to see a car-sized UPS box sitting in front of your door way if you weren't home. Imagine how long the unboxing and unwrapping process would be for that package!

I would personally cut a space just big enough to crawl in the box, start the engine and drive out in a dramatic explosion of cardboard and packing peanuts!

[MokSpeed]

Originally Posted by Dadhawk

I would personally cut a space just big enough to crawl in the box, start the engine and drive out in a dramatic explosion of cardboard and packing peanuts!

That would actually make for a pretty entertaining FR-S commercial.

[jdd]

I'm totally not understanding this. Isn't Merica about keeping stuff Merican? Tesla is Merican! I'm lost Merica!

[gramicci101]

Originally Posted by jdd

I'm totally not understanding this. Isn't Merica about keeping stuff Merican? Tesla is Merican! I'm lost Merica!

Merica is all about it. Unfortunately major corporations don't care about Merica, they care about Money.

Tesla, with its innovation in alternate energy sources and its desire to cut the middle man out of the picture with dealerships, upsets the status quo and threatens other corporations' ability to make Money. It's easier for them to squash their opponent than it is to adapt to a new way of thinking.

[Dadhawk]

Originally Posted by Campo

GM already killed the electric car once and they'd love nothing more than to do it again. ...

Not sure I follow...ever heard of the Volt, or the Cadillac ELR?

Yes, I know they are not 100% electric, but 100% electric isn't practical to me since I don't fit in Tesla's model of "geography/demographic that deserves to drive our car so that's where we'll but our infrastructure, plus you should only drive our car the way we want you to anyway because we know better than you how you need a car", not that I'm bitter or anything...

Despite all the conspiracy theorists, GM (or Ford or Honda or....) has no vested interest in the internal combustion engine. They sell automobiles, that just happen to need cost-efficient practical engine technology to meet consumer need. If something better, and just as practical, came along, and people could afford it and bought it, they would sell it. No different than any other company.

Don't get me wrong Tesla is great tech, and I'd love to own one as a second car, but it is not practical for most people that can only afford one or two cars, and need that car to go where they want to go, on their timelines, without the infrastructure dictating their trips. They may only need to travel outside the practical range a handful of times a year, but when they need to, they want to just go, and the experience has to be no different than going to the local market.

Also, before we start down the "GM was bailed out" path remember that Tesla basically is "pre-bailed out" by being partially funded up front by government subsidies and incentives. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but to me, it is the same. (and yes I realize that other manufacturers benefit from the same incentives at some level).

Should GM been allowed to fail, absolutely. They could have reorganized and come out just as strong from bankruptcy as they did from the bailout, or others would have picked up their slack. I'm just not sure Tesla would be as far down the road without what, to me, adds up to the same government "intervention" in the natural order of things.

OK, [/Soapbox]! I feel better now.

[MokSpeed]

Originally Posted by gramicci101

It's easier for them to squash their opponent than it is to adapt to a new way of thinking.

This is the exact mentality that got GM to where it was in the first place prior to the bailout. Looks like some things never change.

[Tcoat]

Originally Posted by MokSpeed

Would be pretty funny to see a car-sized UPS box sitting in front of your door way if you weren't home. Imagine how long the unboxing and unwrapping process would be for that package!

With the door mat on top to "hide" it!

[chrisl]

Originally Posted by Campo

GM already killed the electric car once and they'd love nothing more than to do it again.

In 1991 my classmates and I built a hybrid electric truck out of a 3/4 ton pickup. Using airplane junkyard parts and a snow mobile motor we were able to get that truck to do 500 miles at 85 mph on 5 gallons of gas.

We were in high school.

100 miles per gallon.

3/4 ton pickup.

23 years ago.

Fuck GM.


Sent from Tapatalk

That's a really unlikely claim. Using a frontal area of 35 square feet and a drag coefficient of 0.40, the truck would experience an aerodynamic drag of about 260 pounds at 85mph. Overcoming this would require about 59 horsepower at the wheels. Assuming an overall vehicle weight of 5000 pounds (which is really light for a 3/4 ton), and assuming you're on pretty efficient tires, the rolling resistance will be about another 35 pounds force, requiring another 8 horsepower at the wheels or so, for a total wheel power to maintain 85mph of about 67hp. Assuming a drivetrain efficiency of 85% (15% drivetrain loss), your snowmobile engine would have to be making about 79hp continuously to maintain 85mph (since all the energy in a non plug-in hybrid must ultimately be coming from the engine).

It'll take you just under 6 hours (5.88 hours, to be exact) to cover 500 miles at 85mph. During this period, with the engine making 79hp, the engine will output a total energy of 1.247 gigajoules (or 346.4 kWh if you prefer). Gasoline has an energy density of about 120.3 megajoules per gallon. If you had a 45% efficient engine (which would be incredibly high for a normal gas engine - large low speed marine diesels can approach 50%, but most gas engines are more like 20-30% at their peak efficiency point), you would get 54 megajoules of work out of the engine for each gallon of gas. To get the required 1.247 gigajoules, you would need 23 gallons of gas, giving a fuel efficiency of about 22 miles per gallon.

Keep in mind that the above involved a lot of optimistic assumptions. You could perhaps increase the efficiency further with careful aerodynamic mods, but you aren't going to get 4 times lower fuel consumption than my numbers above. Admittedly, if you load the car with a LOT of batteries (>250kWh), you could start with a full battery charge and 5 gallons of gas, and end a 500 mile drive having used 5 gallons of gas and a huge battery charge. Then it's not really realistic to say you got 100mpg though, since you really used 5 gallons of gas and a lot of electricity, and you could not have made it the distance on the gas alone. Besides, if it were that easy to make a pickup do 100mpg, do you really think Toyota would be selling a 45-50mpg Prius? It would sell a lot better if it did 150-200mpg, which would be easily doable if your claim above held up.

[Campo]

Originally Posted by chrisl

That's a really unlikely claim. Using a frontal area of 35 square feet and a drag coefficient of 0.40, the truck would experience an aerodynamic drag of about 260 pounds at 85mph. Overcoming this would require about 59 horsepower at the wheels. Assuming an overall vehicle weight of 5000 pounds (which is really light for a 3/4 ton), and assuming you're on pretty efficient tires, the rolling resistance will be about another 35 pounds force, requiring another 8 horsepower at the wheels or so, for a total wheel power to maintain 85mph of about 67hp. Assuming a drivetrain efficiency of 85% (15% drivetrain loss), your snowmobile engine would have to be making about 79hp continuously to maintain 85mph (since all the energy in a non plug-in hybrid must ultimately be coming from the engine).

It'll take you just under 6 hours (5.88 hours, to be exact) to cover 500 miles at 85mph. During this period, with the engine making 79hp, the engine will output a total energy of 1.247 gigajoules (or 346.4 kWh if you prefer). Gasoline has an energy density of about 120.3 megajoules per gallon. If you had a 45% efficient engine (which would be incredibly high for a normal gas engine - large low speed marine diesels can approach 50%, but most gas engines are more like 20-30% at their peak efficiency point), you would get 54 megajoules of work out of the engine for each gallon of gas. To get the required 1.247 gigajoules, you would need 23 gallons of gas, giving a fuel efficiency of about 22 miles per gallon.

Keep in mind that the above involved a lot of optimistic assumptions. You could perhaps increase the efficiency further with careful aerodynamic mods, but you aren't going to get 4 times lower fuel consumption than my numbers above. Admittedly, if you load the car with a LOT of batteries (>250kWh), you could start with a full battery charge and 5 gallons of gas, and end a 500 mile drive having used 5 gallons of gas and a huge battery charge. Then it's not really realistic to say you got 100mpg though, since you really used 5 gallons of gas and a lot of electricity, and you could not have made it the distance on the gas alone. Besides, if it were that easy to make a pickup do 100mpg, do you really think Toyota would be selling a 45-50mpg Prius? It would sell a lot better if it did 150-200mpg, which would be easily doable if your claim above held up.

The mechanical force was supplied by an electric motor mated to the manual transmission that was already in the truck. the Skido motor turned two B-52 alternators (EDIT: they were the starters, not the alternators), one generating electricity to power the electric motor, and one to recharge that huge ass-load of batteries we did start out with.


You are correct in stating we started with charged batteries, and for the purpose of high school calculations 23 years ago, we based our fuel economy on the number of miles covered after a consumer would have pulled out of their garage in the morning. ultimately ending on empty batteries that would have to be charged overnight by a consumer.


We did lighten, rake and aerodynamically treat the truck in order to get as low a COD as we could, but did not have access to a proper wind tunnel for testing - again, we were high school physics students


This is the same basic principle used by trains - run an ICE to turn a generator, and use electric motors for physical motivation. An ICE can be made quite efficient when you find the perfect RPM to just keep it going - not perfect, but far better than trying to cycle it up and down and constantly changing the load.

[cdrazic93]

Originally Posted by strat61caster

No argument that the push is from the privately owned dealerships, that does not change GM's backwardness and current public position, no other manufacturers have taken sides to my knowledge.

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/n...1-hb-5066.html

Lol world class service...does that include the recalls and ignition failures resulting in deaths? If so, GM is definitely world class.

IMO GM has no right to scrutinize other car manufacturers and lobby for fair play when they cant keep a lid on their QC.