BRZ vs Old 911

[DeeezNuuuts83]

Keep in mind that some Porsches that old have some parts that are near impossible to find. An uncle of mine who is pretty successful has always been a Porsche guy with a couple in his garage and maybe a couple more on the way -- he's likely going to pick up a 991S soon while also trying to convince his wife to go with a Cayenne (which he wants her to get) rather than a Q7 (which she wants to get). But one of the two in his garage is a 912E that he's had for a few decades, though it hasn't been registered for street use since 1997 or so...


Apparently the exhaust parts are damn near impossible to find, as he loaned his catalytic converter to a guy he knew with the same car who needed to smog it... then I guess they just lost touch and he never got it back. My uncle had been looking for a replacement (not incredibly hard, but he was trying) but apparently hasn't had any luck... it's to the point where his wife said that on their planned trip to Germany this year, they might also try to hunt down the part too or custom order it and bring it back.


So while I'm sure more common models may not have such rare parts, it's still something to keep in mind, especially if you're going with an older model that you are hoping to use as a DD.

[jdcorbitt3]

The FR-S will out perform the early 70s 911s. Ironically, the suspension set ups are very similar in both cars. The older 911s really require you to drive the car. If you are near the threshold in a turn and lift on the throttle, the rear will come out quick.
That being said, my uncle just bought an 02 996 with 140,000 miles on it in great shape for under $20,000. It has the original IMS bearing in it. I have had two 986 engines apart with 80,000 miles or more on them. Both looked like new. The key is, put miles on them and change the oil often. Pelican Parts has a lot of good write ups on this.

John

P.s. I traded in my 03 986 on my FR-S. My replacement for the FR-S would be an 09 or newer 987 Cayman. The engine is in the right place.

[billwot]

Started building hot rods when I was 14, switched to sports cars when I got out of college (1965). Always lusted after Porsches.

Owned 2 914s, but still wanted a "real" Porsche ("Real" means 911)

But in '93, I bought my first MR2 ('87 T-top, 5 spd) and then wasn't really sure I actually "needed" a 911. Then I bought a '91 MR2 turbo, and soon was sure I could still die happy, even without ever owning a 911.

I bought a 350Z on '06, but cross-shopped Caymans before I bought the Z. But for the price of the Cayman, I could have bought both a Z coupe, AND a Z roadster. Loved the Cayman, but couldn't justify the $70K+. But to me, the Boxster/Cayman is really the ultimate Porsche. (I have owned enough roadsters, so I really don't want a Boxster)

But every car junkie should some time in his life own at least 1 mid-engine car, and at least 1 turbo car. And a mid-engine turbo is the ultimate car junkie car. !

[TRD_86]

Originally Posted by billwot

Started building hot rods when I was 14, switched to sports cars when I got out of college (1965). Always lusted after Porsches.

Owned 2 914s, but still wanted a "real" Porsche ("Real" means 911)

But in '93, I bought my first MR2 ('87 T-top, 5 spd) and then wasn't really sure I actually "needed" a 911. Then I bought a '91 MR2 turbo, and soon was sure I could still die happy, even without ever owning a 911.

I bought a 350Z on '06, but cross-shopped Caymans before I bought the Z. But for the price of the Cayman, I could have bought both a Z coupe, AND a Z roadster. Loved the Cayman, but couldn't justify the $70K+. But to me, the Boxster/Cayman is really the ultimate Porsche. (I have owned enough roadsters, so I really don't want a Boxster)

But every car junkie should some time in his life own at least 1 mid-engine car, and at least 1 turbo car. And a mid-engine turbo is the ultimate car junkie car. !

A little off topic. I used to like the MR2 way back, but then I had the more roomier 84 Celica coupe 4MT thru my college years. Car was so reliable and just last forever. Time goes by, I'm coming back to the FRS . A 997 or the new Cayman GTS will be my collection in near future. How do you like the FRS compare to the old MR2 ?

[leicaboss]

Originally Posted by campy

I own an old-ish 911. For proof (and because pictures are cool), here's a shot of me driving it poorly around an autocross track:



This is a 1996 993 c2. It's an absolute blast to drive. Having the engine in the back allows you to point the car in the direction you want to go, hit the gas, and then go without any tailsliding. The engine is peppy and it has enough horsepower to keep you excited on the street and on the track. Mine has had a bit of work done to it, but from what I remember, it was reasonably comfortable (for a sports car) on stock suspension. It's also a head-turner. I've watched random people come up and take pictures with it. Plus I once won best car at a Subaru show.

As for the bad, everything is expensive, you will need a mechanic with special, Porsche-specific tools, and the interior layout and materials are crap. Sitting inside it really makes you understand how Porsche almost went bust a while ago; luxury car prices and economy car interior. The BRZ's interior, on the other hand, is set up very well. It's comfy, the seats really hold you, and personally, my FRS fits me like a glove. The Porsche's interior works, but it just isn't as well designed as the FRS/BRZ.

I know you're going for a 70s or 80s vintage, and those come with their own sets of problems, like with any classic car. Classics don't make good DDs.

If I had to choose between owning either a BRZ or my Porsche, I would pick the BRZ simply because it is more comfortable, practical, reliable, and economic. Keep in mind what you will be doing with this car and what you will need from it.

But if you're just buying it as a weekend car, then definitely get the Porsche.

993 is the best

[Boxer486]

Originally Posted by TRD_86

How do you like the FRS compare to the old MR2 ?

Can't speak to the old MR2, but compared to the MR-S, it's paring knife (FRS) versus scalpel (MRS). Sharper, more agile, more immediate, more serious for keeping you on your toes if you push it, which is the point. FRS has a balance of fun, cargo, fuel economy, comfort that is magical in its own right. For DD duty, FRS is the one. If I want to just drive with laser focus on the edge for the sake of driving, MRS.

Second the notion that every car enthusiast should own a MR at some point. Having the engine behind you is just the shit in so many positive ways. First time I turned on the power and heard the water pump and coolant circulate behind my head I was done.

Just get a bigger garage. I resigned myself long ago to the fact that I'd never be happy with just one type of automobile so I planned ahead. Got to have the right tool for the right job. I don't envy your problem.

[mike the snake]

Look at the 1986-88 Carreras. They have the good G50 gearboxes.

Somewhat hard to find, but Craigslist always has one or 2 in my area, usually for around 22 to 30 grand, depending on mileage.

They had reliable engines, and the old body style that is classic.

[Purdue FR-S]

Originally Posted by Ganthrithor

...sell the BRZ (which is my perfect, practical, "compromise" car) and buy a less-practical car, or keep the BRZ (which makes all the sense in the world), but keep lusting after old Porsches while I watch their value go up and the value of my car go down, which will ultimately make it even harder to buy a 911 later on.

^This


I've been having the same argument over cars I want to own. They're older, less reliable, but appreciating in value instead of the other way around. I realize this and then wonder why I'm babying something that continues to fall in value. Recently I've been considering if I could have as much fun (in the FR-S) as I would in a $5k miata, and sock away cash until I can find "the one".

Best of luck and let us know what you end up deciding!

[billwot]

Originally Posted by TRD_86

A little off topic. I used to like the MR2 way back, but then I had the more roomier 84 Celica coupe 4MT thru my college years. Car was so reliable and just last forever. Time goes by, I'm coming back to the FRS . A 997 or the new Cayman GTS will be my collection in near future. How do you like the FRS compare to the old MR2 ?

Of the many sports/performance cars I have owned, the gen I MR2 was absolutely #1 on the "fun to drive" scale. And the '91 turbo will probably always be the standard by which I measure any sports car. The MR2 turbo was hands down the best one I have ever owned.

But to answer your question, so far the FR-S seems to be a somewhat more practical version of the gen I MR2. Haven't had a chance to autoX it yet, or even try any serious twistys, but it feels about as tossable as the gen I MR2.

[Ganthrithor]

Just pulled a quick insurance quote from Progressive's site and discovered that my insurance premium for an SC would be less than half what I'm paying for the BRZ. Granted, I have a better policy for the BRZ from a different provider, but it's still $600/yr less than what Progressive quoted me for the BRZ. I find this pretty funny given that the Porsche has the same power to weight ratio as the BRZ, the same seat count as the BRZ, is notoriously difficult to drive, has no driver aids, and is way more likely to be a writeoff if it's involved in any kind of accident... insurance is not intuitive.

In fact, here's a costs estimate I cooked up. I used the standard 15%/yr depreciation for the BRZ (which I personally think is quite conservative... I bet the BRZ doesn't depreciate quite as quickly as your average car), while leaving the Porsche at zero (which is also conservative... I suspect there would probably be some light appreciation going on). I left a $400/yr maintenance budget for the BRZ to cover wear parts that aren't warrantied... oil changes, pads, etc. The $1,200 per year on the Porsche is based on how much I recall my dad saying it cost to maintain his 993, and obviously only budgets for regular maintenance, not including the possibility of something expensive unexpectedly self-destructing.



The Porsche keeps looking less and less crazy.

On the other hand, I took my BRZ out for a quick blast through the foothills today when I went to get lunch... I do love this car. I'm sure the 911 wouldn't out-perform it (not that I really care: feel matters a lot more to me than performance). I'm not sure the 911 would be a whole lot more fun to drive... it would mostly be a change of character than a different quantity of fun, I think. The 911 would just be a more entertaining place to sit when just cruising around-- better smells and sounds, more mid-range torque, etc-- but the BRZ is just stupidly fun whenever you can wind is up a bit.

I think I'll at least try and go look at + test drive this SC. I almost hope I don't like it, because if I do it's going to be really hard to make a decision.

[DeeezNuuuts83]

How did you rate the 911? Remember that insurance claims involving total losses will pay the ACV (actual cash value) and not necessarily the market value... unless you insure it on a classic/collector car policy, and in those scenarios, you pick an agreed value. So unless that's the case, don't expect to get $21,000 if the car is totaled.


Also, if you're paying $2,750 annually in insurance for one car... holy crap.

[Ganthrithor]

Originally Posted by DeeezNuuuts83

How did you rate the 911? Remember that insurance claims involving total losses will pay the ACV (actual cash value) and not necessarily the market value... unless you insure it on a classic/collector car policy, and in those scenarios, you pick an agreed value. So unless that's the case, don't expect to get $21,000 if the car is totaled.


Also, if you're paying $2,750 annually in insurance for one car... holy crap.

I just got a quote from Progressive with parameters as close as possible to the ones I specified when I got the quote for my BRZ. However, even if I went with a specialty, agreed-value policy, I assume the premium should still be lower than it is for the BRZ since the car is worth ten grand less.

The policy I currently have for my BRZ is an agreed-value policy based on the value of my car + mods. IIRC my quote from Progressive was $1800/yr for normal insurance with the same general coverage. Insurance also seems to be expensive in California... the Progressive premium I was quoted here was $400/yr more than the premium I was paying Progressive for the same car + driver in Denver, IIRC. You'd think that between getting real weather and living in a worse neighborhood that the insurance would have cost more in CO, but you'd be wrong. Maybe it's because California is full of nicer cars to hit: particularly this town... I see more nice cars in a ten minute drive down the road here than I used to see in a month driving around Denver. In Denver it was rare to see anything worth over $100k on the roads, here there are Ferrari 250 California's at cars + coffee. The other week in Monterey I saw a 250 GTO just cruising down the highway. NBD: just taking my fifty-million-dollar car down to the shops. California is unreal.

[gramicci101]

You know you want one...

[synchromesh]

Really hope the younger generation can continue on automobiles as "art". A lot of them are kinda weird nowadays, lol. I would encourage anyone to purchase a hand-built vehicle especially a nice 911. Can recalled being at Universal Studio's in February.. Got depressed for a while as everyone hovered around the Transformer while the poor Marilyn look-alike was all by herself. I wanted to talk with her so bad but my back was bit buggered going through the haunted house I'd like to do it but most of the new parking lots are so narrow nowadays