Suspension dilemma

[wheelhaus]

Originally Posted by JC0830

So you're suggesting that once I go lower than 1" I should start thinking about camber adjustments?

And before. It's a tool you can use to help dial in the car's handling at any ride height. Stock, the car only has toe adjustment. This is critical for tire wear in a passenger car, but enthusiasts will want more adjustment, even if it's only adjusted once and forgotten.

I'd recommend camber bolts up front at minimum even if you're at stock ride height, they can add up to about -0.75 to -1° IIRC.. If you're only going to do one thing on the cheap, that's the best choice. Adjustable top hats will give you further adjustment (since it's a strut), even at stock height you might want more neg camber. Many coilovers come with adjustable hats. The rear is multilink (plain shock, no strut) which will add neg camber as it's compressed. I don't believe LCA's are needed in the rear for only 1" drop, but, without any form of adjustment you won't be able to change it if you want/need to, unless it just happens to be perfect as-is after the drop. I think with 1" drop you are probably fine as-is.

[sdemo]

RS*R Sports-i

[JC0830]

Originally Posted by wheelhaus

And before. It's a tool you can use to help dial in the car's handling at any ride height. Stock, the car only has toe adjustment. This is critical for tire wear in a passenger car, but enthusiasts will want more adjustment, even if it's only adjusted once and forgotten.

I'd recommend camber bolts up front at minimum even if you're at stock ride height, they can add up to about -0.75 to -1° IIRC.. If you're only going to do one thing on the cheap, that's the best choice. Adjustable top hats will give you further adjustment (since it's a strut), even at stock height you might want more neg camber. Many coilovers come with adjustable hats. The rear is multilink (plain shock, no strut) which will add neg camber as it's compressed. I don't believe LCA's are needed in the rear for only 1" drop, but, without any form of adjustment you won't be able to change it if you want/need to, unless it just happens to be perfect as-is after the drop. I think with 1" drop you are probably fine as-is.

been reading up on other threads and decided to go with coilovers. if i go with the spring route then later on i might need struts/shocks and may not be satisfied with the result, so going the coilover route would be safer since i can adjust the coilovers.
as of now leaning towards bilstein b14's vs. kw v1 and with it will probably look into top hats and LCA's.
so any recommendations on top hats and LCA's?

[wheelhaus]

Originally Posted by JC0830

been reading up on other threads and decided to go with coilovers. if i go with the spring route then later on i might need struts/shocks and may not be satisfied with the result, so going the coilover route would be safer since i can adjust the coilovers.
as of now leaning towards bilstein b14's vs. kw v1 and with it will probably look into top hats and LCA's.
so any recommendations on top hats and LCA's?

Good choices. I haven't researched what top hats are compatible with those dampers, but I'd consider avoiding straight pillowball type top hats and LCAs. The Whiteline ComC top hats are similar to OEM with a sealed bearing, but they're not adjustable. They do add camber and caster. (Caster is the imaginary axis about which the wheel turns left/right). More positive caster is similar to raking out the fork on a motorcycle. A little extra on a car can help improve steering feel and tire "lean" (additional neg camber) as the wheel turns into that direction.

Anyways, a pillowball is a spherical bearing, a.k.a. a heim joint, and it's not a "bearing" by common definition. It's a hard steel spherical ball that rests tightly in a socket lined with teflon liner or brass or something for lubrication. These types of joints are fantastic for eliminating bushing squish, improving feedback, and making suspension movement more accurate. Perfect for a race car, but can be harsh for a street car. Also dirt, debris, corrosion, and other undesirables can work their way into the joint and cause wear, resulting in slop and NVH as the ball clanks around in the joint. Although some are sealed in a boot which helps longevity, I personally haven't seen a pillowball joint that's impervious to the elements or for years of use and abuse on a daily driven car. Whiteline and some others use a harder durometer polyurethane bushing that still improves feedback, can usually be greased, but is easily replaceable if worn.

edit-
a good suspension shop should be able to help you pick 100% compatible parts as long as you know what you want out of it.

[wparsons]

I would seriously suggest talking to a shop about your wants/needs and get them to steer you into the right direction.

The friendly guys at CSG are very active on here and will be a ton of help to you.
@CSG Mike , @CSG David

[CSG Mike]

I've been summoned.

With the amount of drop you're looking for, without supporting mods, you're going to have a lot of camber.

I'd budget for rear lower control arms and camber plates, as well as the dampers themselves and springs (or coilovers).

Depending on the setup, you may not need supporting mods.

[JC0830]

Originally Posted by wheelhaus

Good choices. I haven't researched what top hats are compatible with those dampers, but I'd consider avoiding straight pillowball type top hats and LCAs. The Whiteline ComC top hats are similar to OEM with a sealed bearing, but they're not adjustable. They do add camber and caster. (Caster is the imaginary axis about which the wheel turns left/right). More positive caster is similar to raking out the fork on a motorcycle. A little extra on a car can help improve steering feel and tire "lean" (additional neg camber) as the wheel turns into that direction.

Anyways, a pillowball is a spherical bearing, a.k.a. a heim joint, and it's not a "bearing" by common definition. It's a hard steel spherical ball that rests tightly in a socket lined with teflon liner or brass or something for lubrication. These types of joints are fantastic for eliminating bushing squish, improving feedback, and making suspension movement more accurate. Perfect for a race car, but can be harsh for a street car. Also dirt, debris, corrosion, and other undesirables can work their way into the joint and cause wear, resulting in slop and NVH as the ball clanks around in the joint. Although some are sealed in a boot which helps longevity, I personally haven't seen a pillowball joint that's impervious to the elements or for years of use and abuse on a daily driven car. Whiteline and some others use a harder durometer polyurethane bushing that still improves feedback, can usually be greased, but is easily replaceable if worn.

edit-
a good suspension shop should be able to help you pick 100% compatible parts as long as you know what you want out of it.

from your explanation, I don't think I'll go with the pillowball type tophats since this is my DD
could you elaborate on what you mean by adjustable tophats? b/c I thought tophats were just plates that dissipate the energy from the shocks.

-edit-
also I'm getting confused with these terms..haha..when you say tophats, does that means camber plates?

[JC0830]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

I've been summoned.

With the amount of drop you're looking for, without supporting mods, you're going to have a lot of camber.

I'd budget for rear lower control arms and camber plates, as well as the dampers themselves and springs (or coilovers).

Depending on the setup, you may not need supporting mods.

I've thought about it and am now deciding to go with about 1.5-1.2" drop on the front and 1-1.3" drop on the back. I think that'll be enough to rid the wheel gap while not sacrificing performance. so I'm guessing I"ll still need to add LCA's and camber plates?
Will I need bushings and sway bars? If I do need sway bars, how do I determine what size to get?

[CSG Mike]

Originally Posted by JC0830

I've thought about it and am now deciding to go with about 1.5-1.2" drop on the front and 1-1.3" drop on the back. I think that'll be enough to rid the wheel gap while not sacrificing performance. so I'm guessing I"ll still need to add LCA's and camber plates?
Will I need bushings and sway bars? If I do need sway bars, how do I determine what size to get?

You won't need em.

[wheelhaus]

Originally Posted by JC0830

also I'm getting confused with these terms..haha..when you say tophats, does that means camber plates?

NVH = noise, vibration, harshness

Top hats are what support the top of the strut, some top hats are camber plates (adjustable), some are non adjustable. By adjustable, they usually have 4 -6 bolts that allow the top of the strut to be moved inward toward the car's center, or outward. This changes camber. Unfortunately because of the steering linkage geometry, this will also slightly change toe, I believe adjusting for negative camber results toe out (positive), so you'll want an alignment to make sure everything is pointing in the right direction/angles after the parts are installed.

A shock also uses a top hat (often used as the spring seat as well), but there's no reason for adjustment (see below).

A (MacPherson) strut is a shock that's integral to the suspension geometry. The wheel mounts to the strut/knuckle. The lower control arm typically utilizes an a-arm with a ball joint, which is used for steering. The top of the strut is located with another ball joint/bearing, also used for steering. Without the strut, the wheel flops around willy-nilly in all directions. So, a strut is an integrated shock. Changing the top strut position changes the wheel's alignment. The biggest benefit is fewer moving parts, improved durability.

A shock on the other hand, is part of a suspension system that already controls the wheel movement via linkages, such as a multilink system, or one with an a-arm top and bottom. In this case, the shock only controls/dampens the up/down movement, but the wheel path is controlled by the linkages. Changing the top shock position has virtually zero effect on wheel alignment. The biggest benefit is improved control of wheel movement, but there's more points of wear.

There's a lot of other variations, but for your reference, our cars have a multilink rear end with a shock (kinda like below, but more links), and the front uses a strut.

[JC0830]

@wheelhaus thanks so much for the explanation!
now I'm starting understand a bit. so like you said before, I'll need camber plates in the front and LCA's are needed in the back to compensate for the dropped height

[JC0830]

Originally Posted by CSG Mike

You won't need em.

Could you explain why I won't need sway bars and bushings?

[was385]

Originally Posted by JC0830

Could you explain why I won't need sway bars and bushings?

They're not a necessary upgrade. They're about changing the feel of the car to suit your liking, but the car will be perfectly fine with the stock parts. For example, I beefed up my front sway because my setup was a bit too tail-happy for autox. Even during pretty spirited daily driving, I feel almost no difference with the sway.

[CSG Mike]

^ Exactly what he said, but you won't need them based on what I see, unless you want the car to oversteer less (in which case, get JUST the front sway)