High performance Vortech at track

[Dezoris]

Clearly, I don't run a higher HP map for track but at the 220HP range I found the upper end of the cooling limit of the Perrin Oil cooler and the Koyo Rad after 30 minutes on track.

I have most of this stuff in my track review but here is the data log showing what to expect at about 30 minutes:



My oil analysis showed motor oil was completely fine however I do have to keep an eye on transmission. We need to start collecting data on trans wear from track guys running FI.

It's my opinion if you plan to run near 290HP wheel HP you absolutely need to consider a much larger oil cooler, lower fan activation points at a minimum. In terms of Vortech durability, Vortech and some of the higher HP guys needs to start explaining the upper limits of the self oiled unit in terms of time and temps to keep blower safe.
@Brian@Vortech @448hpsti

At the 300HP range you are looking at fuel pump and injectors. 93 would be a must or E85 to be safe if you are running extending time. I know there are some high HP guys on here but honestly never have seen any serious logs or true data collection posted from track time. Which is why I did all my testing conservative.

[448hpsti]

empirically,blower safety can be simple,I discussed this at length with the lead engineer dude at Vortech, they have some real 'pocket protector' types I enjoy dealing with there, and here is what I got:

if youre running smaller than a stock pulley, and tracking and need to know how hot is the sc getting, install a temp sender and make sure the thing stays below 250F, I'm sure its more complex than that but just try and see, I try to keep my oil cool and clean, so far so good.

use the orifice just next to their drain hole. I've run mine right at the 250F limit, for ever, without issue

disclaimer: I run the 2.87 pulley toss out my car and SC warranty as part of my build so dont copy me without budgeting accordingly. I collect more data than I post for a variety of reasons.

thus, IMHO,as you reach the 260+ hp range, you can run 91, 3.33 and track it however youre now at the VERY edge of "safely" at 95F for 20 minutes - done with care it can be done over and over. and over and over, driven at 10/10s with the correct tune (emphasis on last four words)on oe rad and perrin cooler, but at the end of my noon run oil is way too hot for safety as is water

based on dezoris's post, he had nearly same results with the koyorad+ perrin

once you get past 9.5psi and 3.33 pulley use, its clearly an area you need build for your climate, track and style
for me, opting for a beefier SC was the way to go, now if I can keep the whole car cool, we're good

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by 448hpsti

blower safety can be simple,I discussed this at length with the lead engineer dude at Vortech, they have some real 'pocket protector' types I enjoy dealing with, and here is what I got:

if youre running smaller than a stock pulley, and tracking and need to know how hot is the sc getting, install a temp sender and make sure the thing stays below 250F, I'm sure its more complex than that but just try and see, I try to keep my oil cool and clean, so far so good.

use the orifice just next to their drain hole.

Did you ever install the temp sensor and check on track?
(I am not saying it is needed, just want to know time/vs HP on track vs temp analysis of blower oil temps.)

[448hpsti]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

Did you ever install the temp sensor and check on track?
(I am not saying it is needed, just want to know time/vs HP on track vs temp analysis of blower oil temps.)

yes sir indeed

I have been equipped with temp sender for 6 months now and yes...oodles of track time and lots of driving in triple digit temps WOT, for me to share my last post with any degree of confidence

[jamesm]

so what i gather from this is that even with upgraded radiator and oil cooler, the car will still overheat after a half hour or so on the track? or is it recovering better with the aftermarket parts, to the point that it's not an issue (for 20-30 min sessions)?

[448hpsti]

Originally Posted by jamesm

so what i gather from this is that even with upgraded radiator and oil cooler, the car will still overheat after a half hour or so on the track? or is it recovering better with the aftermarket parts, to the point that it's not an issue (for 20-30 min sessions)?

You got it. The SC is more stout than the car, if you ask me.Overheat is relative term. 225 water and 260 oil would be great, if I can cap both at those numbers.

I have yet to figure out what is needed to run it(the car) cooler, but there needs to be a balance point between heat, build and power goals. I'm hoping I can stay at my current power level.

I can say the car seems to shed oil temps sooner/faster with the robispec radiator, but spiking oil means spiking water and I am not crazy about that part

The Vortech FMIC is great in some ways at dropping IAT but it sucks at letting whats behind it breathe when the water temps are north of 220!

I am not afraid to back down from where I am, power wise- the TQ of the smaller pulley wants to rip my head off in 2nd gear, so I really dont want to go backwards. At all.

I wish ectuek would allow tuners to change the points at which fans engage both temp, speed and percentage. Its not there yet

I have the mishimoto thermostat but havent put it in yet. not sure if it will drop my temps out of the power sweet spot, for street use, but will likely let me hit the track a few degrees cooler, so that may be a few more minutes of 'headroom'

its an ongoing learning thing anytime you track a 1st year car

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by jamesm

so what i gather from this is that even with upgraded radiator and oil cooler, the car will still overheat after a half hour or so on the track? or is it recovering better with the aftermarket parts, to the point that it's not an issue (for 20-30 min sessions)?

As said by 448hpsti overheat is relative. The car certainly does not overheat but reaches the outer limits of what is stable and safe.

I don't think many people understand this but it is much harder to build a street car capable on the track than it is to build a track car. You don't have to compromise with track cars. It's finding that middle ground where you can go run it and return back to daily driving with little or no work.

Gem and I both work with Perrin. And the connections I have with race shops generally mirror what Jeff says and that is going over 250F for oil is too hot for this motor and heads without knowing longer term data.

The race guys I know all target 230F for oil on track which is very difficult to do on this car unless you are running monster cooling.

And again monster cooling does not work for street driving namely when you don't life in California or hot climates.

In terms of coolant temps they suffer because after 30 minutes your cooling system is working to cool oil. Add more power and that 30 minutes falls to 20 etc.

I will be testing Jeffs tune with lower fan activation points to see if it helps to stabilize temps. I think for most people however running longer than 30 minutes on track will never happen.

[jamesm]

just to be clear, this isn't an FI-specific problem, right? a stock car would get just as hot just as fast? i logged temps before/after my turbo install and with regular (spirited, around town) driving they didn't increase noticeably. temps always jump to 200/230 (water/oil) and stay there as i drive around. of course i don't track the car, and i'm sure it wouldn't last 10 minutes if i did (i'm all stock as far as cooling is concerned).

what i'm getting at is that even those with completely stock cars still need to worry about this, it's not an 'FI problem'. correct?

[Dezoris]

Originally Posted by jamesm

just to be clear, this isn't an FI-specific problem, right? a stock car would get just as hot just as fast? i logged temps before/after my turbo install and with regular (spirited, around town) driving they didn't increase noticeably. temps always jump to 200/230 (water/oil) and stay there as i drive around. of course i don't track the car, and i'm sure it wouldn't last 10 minutes if i did (i'm all stock as far as cooling is concerned).

what i'm getting at is that even those with completely stock cars still need to worry about this, it's not an 'FI problem'. correct?

Oil temps are a problem with stock car with no oil cooler.

FI makes it worse. For example on a stock car you can run 3 back to back 0-60 runs and watch oil hit 210F.

Do the same on FI and you are at 230F.

[sw20kosh]

Originally Posted by jamesm

just to be clear, this isn't an FI-specific problem, right?

what i'm getting at is that even those with completely stock cars still need to worry about this, it's not an 'FI problem'. correct?

Stock cars do suffer on track. This is due to the inadequate stock cooling.

FI adds more air and fuel to the combustion process thus yielding more heat per combustion. Additionally FI have components that heat up due to friction (superchargers) or due to exhaust heat buildup (turbos). Lastly, the act of compressing the air itself heats up the IAT and thus yields hotter air entering the combustion chambers.

So to answer your question: FI amplifies any cooling deficiencies the stock system has.

[448hpsti]

Even with upgraded cooling, once you get past 9psi if you live where it is hot,it's not pretty, bigger rad helps but hot is hot

[Sonolin]

Well that's all a little dissapointing. Thank everybody for the good information. I was hoping the Vortech to be a lot cooler at higher WHP but that's probably mostly the nature of the 86 not the supercharger itself.

EDIT: I'd also expect e85 to cool off things a bit making ~10 psi more doable, right?

[Dezoris]

The 86 design from under hood to underpanel setup has very little heat dissipation.
Its a very sealed engine bay, any forced induction is going to raise those temps turbos being the worst offender.

Out of most of the FI guys on this site the Vortech owners have the most transparency in terms of track experience and logs. Which frankly I am proud of on as there is so much BS spouted with nothing to back it up besides dyno sheets. Any idiot can crank up the boost, but making the car hold up to extended abuse is totally different.

The fact that we can even talk about potential issues and prevention is important. We have already proven this kit, now its just a matter on how to keep some of the other areas of the car in check as you add more power. E85 will help cooling, if you don't mind trashing your MPG.

[Sonolin]

Originally Posted by Dezoris

The 86 design from under hood to underpanel setup has very little heat dissipation.
Its a very sealed engine bay, any forced induction is going to raise those temps turbos being the worst offender.

Out of most of the FI guys on this site the Vortech owners have the most transparency in terms of track experience and logs. Which frankly I am proud of on as there is so much BS spouted with nothing to back it up besides dyno sheets. Any idiot can crank up the boost, but making the car hold up to extended abuse is totally different.

The fact that we can even talk about potential issues and prevention is important. We have already proven this kit, now its just a matter on how to keep some of the other areas of the car in check as you add more power. E85 will help cooling, if you don't mind trashing your MPG.

I agree and I wish there was more at track information out there. I'm just trying to gather an idea of as many points as I can before I make a decision. For now I'll probably stay N/A and I hope it doesn't end up that way because I keep thinking how fun this car could be with F/I

I'm just not sure its worth it yet from what I've seen and hope to see more details in the future about true at track experience, with this kit and the other kits available. I'm just not satisfied with what I've seen of 220-260whp F/I setups at the track . What's the point of outclassing the car in a track class, if you can't compete with the higher classed cars?

Yea yea, this car is all about fun but if I'm setting it up for F/I I also want it to be fast.