What would you do? Audio discussion.

[thill]

Originally Posted by ean611

Thill:

Something missing from all your builds: midrange speakers.

The BRZ/FRS has terrible doors for midrange. 500-4000Hz range, you do not want to be part of those door enclosures.

By the same token, your dashboard sounds like crap, as all of ours do. 4th order high pass filter (24dB/octave) around 500Hz is also something you want for the dashboard.

Your best best for sound is a 3 way setup, door woofers, plus 3 inch plus tweeter. You're better off doing that and going with no rears as opposed to going 2-way up front. I've listened to very nice speakers in a 2 way setup in a FR-S, and I'd say you're significantly better off going 3-way.

Yeah, too late Going the 2 way route and will see what happens. Worse case I add the 3.5's back into the mix, but the installer was concerned about getting these to integrate correctly and told me a good 2 way setup is easier. We will find out..

If you want a sub, Integrity Concepts is a great deal once they get back on their feet following their move, otherwise, the JL Audio Stealthbox is a nice piece.

I was checking out their enclosures and like them, but am building my own custom enclosure that should take up minimal space as well. Should cost me less than $20 for the enclosure since I already have all the tools already and it really just comes down to buying a 4x4 piece of 13 ply baltic birch.

[thill]

Originally Posted by ean611

MS-8 is a great device, if you don't know how to tune an install. It does a very good job of tuning, and while technically I can do better, the MS-8 will get you 98% of the way there without having to spend hours tuning it.

Otherwise, you'll end up with a Mosconi 6-8, 3Sixty.3 or Arc Audio PS8. Those are all decent devices with their own pros and cons. However, all of those require an RTA to tune. The MS-8 is very easy.

Good to know about the MS-8, I am definitely considering one, but want to see how the new speakers and sub sound first, and give them time to break-in.

[kmbkk]

Here' a pic of the tweeters I'll be installing. I'm really excited to hear how they sound!

[kmbkk]

I agree the Integrity Concepts boxes look great. However, shipping is really expensive t the east coast. Luckily another company in Alabama is making one similar, and a little cheaper.
Here's a link to them:

http://www.caraudio.com/forums/subwo...enclosure.html

I'm going with an 8" enclosure & it's only $219 right now.

Sorry to thread-jack!

[thill]

Originally Posted by kmbkk

I agree the Integrity Concepts boxes look great. However, shipping is really expensive t the east coast. Luckily another company in Alabama is making one similar, and a little cheaper.
Here's a link to them:

http://www.caraudio.com/forums/subwo...enclosure.html

I'm going with an 8" enclosure & it's only $219 right now.

Sorry to thread-jack!

Hey, you are not threadjacking, this is good info. If for some reason I am not happy with my custom built enclosure it is good to know about these options.

[ean611]

Originally Posted by thill

Yeah, too late Going the 2 way route and will see what happens. Worse case I add the 3.5's back into the mix, but the installer was concerned about getting these to integrate correctly and told me a good 2 way setup is easier. We will find out..



I was checking out their enclosures and like them, but am building my own custom enclosure that should take up minimal space as well. Should cost me less than $20 for the enclosure since I already have all the tools already and it really just comes down to buying a 4x4 piece of 13 ply baltic birch.

First things first, Don't care how good the install is, You will rarely get great results without an EQ. This is just a fact. (Disclaimer, my definition of good is very high). Time alignment is key, as you can adjust the phase of the speakers to simulate them being equidistant from you, as they would be in a good home audio setup.

If you can build a great enclosure, go for it. There is one reason I don't: I live in an apartment, and do not have the space for a workshop.

Now as for the two-way setup, you'll end up seeing two effects.
1. Low sound stage: This is where while the high "airy" sound (like cymbal crashes) will come from your windshield, much of the lower sound (saxophone, horns, low guitar (meaning low notes)), will sound like they're coming from lower down. Some people do not care much about this, but it is something that is there.
2. Muddy mid range: The doors, specifically the left door, is not going to be good for the mid range areas. Lower mid range / upper midbass area sound tends to spread differently. As you move to higher frequency, sound gets more directional. This means that since if you look at your left door, you do not have a path to your left ear from the woofer. There is pretty much nothing that can solve this. FYI, given how off axis your left door is, (in most cars) any woofer without a phase plug will not work well in that application period. The C5 does not have a phase plug, meaning the off axis response is likely poor. The few Helix speakers I googled look like nice construction, but again, the lack of a phase plug will be detrimental to what you're trying to do.

http://hybrid-audio.com/imagine/

I'd check those out for your setup. I would not use their Stage III or IV, (higher end) as those lack the phase plug, and will not be as good. The stage V and VI are excellent, and are what I use in my own system. (Excellent off-axis response)

I just include those for a reference, but there are many woofers with decent off axis response, but typically they have to have a phase plug, or you get your left / right difference being huge.

[thill]

Originally Posted by ean611

First things first, Don't care how good the install is, You will rarely get great results without an EQ. This is just a fact. (Disclaimer, my definition of good is very high). Time alignment is key, as you can adjust the phase of the speakers to simulate them being equidistant from you, as they would be in a good home audio setup.

I really appreciate your honesty and insight. I know you are right about this, and my installer was pretty much telling me that, just like home theater, EQ in the car will make all difference. Which is why he likes the OEM + solution. I do agree with you on this and it will be addressed, but it might be a few months since I have other priorities like getting my car paid off. I am going to go over my options with the installer. Are there any particular EQ processing options you recommend on a budget? There are tons of options out there.

If you can build a great enclosure, go for it. There is one reason I don't: I live in an apartment, and do not have the space for a workshop.

Yes, if I did not I would be going with something like a JL Stealth or other custom solution that fits my car. I built all my home theater subs and had fun with it, so I plan on learning and having fun with the car sub. For about $20 or so in wood, if I am not happy, that is about all I am out and can use the driver in a different enclosure.

Now as for the two-way setup, you'll end up seeing two effects.
1. Low sound stage: This is where while the high "airy" sound (like cymbal crashes) will come from your windshield, much of the lower sound (saxophone, horns, low guitar (meaning low notes)), will sound like they're coming from lower down. Some people do not care much about this, but it is something that is there.
2. Muddy mid range: The doors, specifically the left door, is not going to be good for the mid range areas. Lower mid range / upper midbass area sound tends to spread differently. As you move to higher frequency, sound gets more directional. This means that since if you look at your left door, you do not have a path to your left ear from the woofer. There is pretty much nothing that can solve this. FYI, given how off axis your left door is, (in most cars) any woofer without a phase plug will not work well in that application period. The C5 does not have a phase plug, meaning the off axis response is likely poor. The few Helix speakers I googled look like nice construction, but again, the lack of a phase plug will be detrimental to what you're trying to do.

http://hybrid-audio.com/imagine/

I'd check those out for your setup. I would not use their Stage III or IV, (higher end) as those lack the phase plug, and will not be as good. The stage V and VI are excellent, and are what I use in my own system. (Excellent off-axis response)

This is good info. Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences. Looking at the hybrid speakers (this is the first I have heard of them) and the Imagine series, these are 2 way, correct, not 3 way? None of the installers I spoke with mentioned them, but I will do a little more research on them. I have already purchased the JL's at a very discounted rate, but I may be able to use them in our other car, because off axis is important to me, since I assume as the driver, I would potentially be sitting off-axis....

I just include those for a reference, but there are many woofers with decent off axis response, but typically they have to have a phase plug, or you get your left / right difference being huge.

Thanks, again this is something I will need to consider. I am hoping EQ could assist, but obviously speaker design is essential.

[ean611]

Originally Posted by thill

I really appreciate your honesty and insight. I know you are right about this, and my installer was pretty much telling me that, just like home theater, EQ in the car will make all difference. Which is why he likes the OEM + solution. I do agree with you on this and it will be addressed, but it might be a few months since I have other priorities like getting my car paid off. I am going to go over my options with the installer. Are there any particular EQ processing options you recommend on a budget? There are tons of options out there.

Yes, if I did not I would be going with something like a JL Stealth or other custom solution that fits my car. I built all my home theater subs and had fun with it, so I plan on learning and having fun with the car sub. For about $20 or so in wood, if I am not happy, that is about all I am out and can use the driver in a different enclosure.

This is good info. Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences. Looking at the hybrid speakers (this is the first I have heard of them) and the Imagine series, these are 2 way, correct, not 3 way? None of the installers I spoke with mentioned them, but I will do a little more research on them. I have already purchased the JL's at a very discounted rate, but I may be able to use them in our other car, because off axis is important to me, since I assume as the driver, I would potentially be sitting off-axis....

Thanks, again this is something I will need to consider. I am hoping EQ could assist, but obviously speaker design is essential.

An EQ can help, but you're always better off starting with better off axis response, and fix from there. I didn't keep a screen shot of my car speakers pre and post EQ, but the difference is huge, and I have ~$1400 in speakers in my car.

For EQs, there is the MS-8, Mosconi 6-8, Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.3 and Arc Audio PS8. Can't help you on budget, because anything cheaper is a waste of money, as you'll just re-buy it again. You want at least 1/3rd octave on every channel.

The Imagine series from Hybrid Audio is only 2 way, but was linking it as that is what you were looking at. The Legatia series has 3 way, but a 3 way setup there costs in the range of ~1000 depending on options.

For reference, my BRZ has L6 in the door, L3v2 and L1v2 in dash. (L6v2 is current model). My rears are L3 (Not l3v2, no phase plug). I also have an L2x used for the mid range to tweeter crossover, so I can use 4 amp channels for the front rather than 6.

FYI, JL makes a nice speaker, but as a driver, you're often off axis in many cars. Some cars are more on axis than others, so depending on vehicle, YMMV. My recommendation with speakers comes specifically with the BRZ location.

One thing I like about Hybrid is that they're very efficient. Often high end speakers require huge amps, those do not. I am running the front stage off of an amp rated at 60x4. (Rockford Fosgate Power T400-4).

[Integrity Concepts]

Originally Posted by kmbkk

I agree the Integrity Concepts boxes look great. However, shipping is really expensive t the east coast. Luckily another company in Alabama is making one similar, and a little cheaper.
Here's a link to them:

http://www.caraudio.com/forums/subwo...enclosure.html

I'm going with an 8" enclosure & it's only $219 right now.

Sorry to thread-jack!

.



I as well noticed this enclosure posted on another forum about 2 months ago while doing market research for obvious reasons. While their 10" enclosure size seems to be a good airspace at .72 cu ft, their 8" enclosure appears to be the exact same enclosure with just a different mounting ring which makes it a very large internal volume for most 8" woofers.

Their website says that their 8" enclosure's internal airspace is .69 cu ft. which confirms just a swapping of the mounting ring/face on the 10" enclosure. Link to 8" product: http://www.256motoring.com/index.php/vse-products.html#!/~/product/category=5817112&id=23500659

My question is: If they are planning to release another 24 models in the next 4-6 weeks (according to this article: http://www.12voltnews.com/2013/07/02...ub-enclosures/) that's more than 1 new model released each week, and at that speed I wonder why they can't just make an actual 8" version, with a more proper airspace?

I have no idea what proprietary specialized materials they are using (I would guess an FRP - Fiberglass Reinforced Plastic), how their enclosure's sound, or even how they can realistically research, develop, cast molds, and release a new product model each week while still continuing to manufacture the actual products. And while I can't speak of the quality either, it does seem to me that they are focused more on the quantity of products they can push out, regardless of how well it fits an average 8" woofer's suggested airspace range. Yet they mention that they "incorporate analytical data for lower resonant frequency" and perform "extensive testing of a vehicle’s specific low range resonant frequency".

The price is great, and they claim to be "far superior to those found anywhere else in the marketplace" but even if I didn't research and develop a competing product and I was just another fellow audio nut, I would probably look the other way based solely on their fancy terminology and low price.

I do think that their incorporated RFID tagging technology could be pretty useful for dealer tracking, but who pays for this extra added tag / feature that is relatively useless to the end user, or is it just further taking away from the overhead cost of building this already inexpensive "far superior" product.

Just some food for thought. Sorry for the continuation of the thread jacking. I'll get back to answering our emails and PM's now.

[thill]

Originally Posted by ean611

An EQ can help, but you're always better off starting with better off axis response, and fix from there. I didn't keep a screen shot of my car speakers pre and post EQ, but the difference is huge, and I have ~$1400 in speakers in my car.

For EQs, there is the MS-8, Mosconi 6-8, Rockford Fosgate 3Sixty.3 and Arc Audio PS8. Can't help you on budget, because anything cheaper is a waste of money, as you'll just re-buy it again. You want at least 1/3rd octave on every channel.

The Imagine series from Hybrid Audio is only 2 way, but was linking it as that is what you were looking at. The Legatia series has 3 way, but a 3 way setup there costs in the range of ~1000 depending on options.

For reference, my BRZ has L6 in the door, L3v2 and L1v2 in dash. (L6v2 is current model). My rears are L3 (Not l3v2, no phase plug). I also have an L2x used for the mid range to tweeter crossover, so I can use 4 amp channels for the front rather than 6.

FYI, JL makes a nice speaker, but as a driver, you're often off axis in many cars. Some cars are more on axis than others, so depending on vehicle, YMMV. My recommendation with speakers comes specifically with the BRZ location.

One thing I like about Hybrid is that they're very efficient. Often high end speakers require huge amps, those do not. I am running the front stage off of an amp rated at 60x4. (Rockford Fosgate Power T400-4).

I cannot thank you enough for your insight on this. I did a lot of research on the Hybrid Audio Image series and every review was glowing and impressive. Many head-to-head comparions against the JL Audio C5-650's and it seems they are pretty close, but most people prefer the Imagines.

I then started reading up on the phase plugs and how they affect sound, and I can see why you are recommending them. I reached out to a very respected speaker designer I know from home theater and he basically echoed what you explained and what I read. That they are a good thing if properly implemented and that I should consider them in a car where you are kinda screwed with off-axis response unless you can move the speakers around, which I cannot.

My dilemma.. Through my buddy I got a great deal no a brand new JL Audio C5-650 component set of speakers and they are arriving tomorrow.. I would feel bad not using them and asking him to take them back when he pulled some strings for me, so I checked our 2013 Honda Odyssey and sure enough they should work perfectly. That vehicle has really poor sound (my wife even complains) so I will use them in the van.

So the Hybrid Audio Imagine 6's are ordered and 12velectonics (authorized dealer) is amazing and already shipped them (they will be here Monday). Very excited to get these installed and I still need to lock down EQ...

Cannot thank you enough, I have learned a lot in such a short time about car audio. And yes, they are extremely efficient and should be easy to drive cleanly. I prefer efficient speakers for home theater and it seems the rule applies to car audio.

Will let you know how it works out

[kmbkk]

You made a good choice with Hybrid Audio speakers. I've heard many great reviews on them and have heard the Legatia series, very nice!

[GaDgeT]

Will vouch for the Hybrid drivers, running the L1, L4se in the dash and L6's in the doors.. now they are run in and tuned, haven't heard anything that comes close to the clarity. But this epic sound comes @ a steep price and you have to have the amps to drive them properly.

Also will recommend as others have, get a DSP! Having advanced tuning, time correction, EQ, digital xovers makes all the difference in imaging and sound staging, but takes a lot of time to get the settings right, be prepared to spend a great deal of time in the car with a laptop ;p

Option 2 bro, SQ all the way!

[thill]

Originally Posted by GaDgeT

Will vouch for the Hybrid drivers, running the L1, L4se in the dash and L6's in the doors.. now they are run in and tuned, haven't heard anything that comes close to the clarity. But this epic sound comes @ a steep price and you have to have the amps to drive them properly.

Also will recommend as others have, get a DSP! Having advanced tuning, time correction, EQ, digital xovers makes all the difference in imaging and sound staging, but takes a lot of time to get the settings right, be prepared to spend a great deal of time in the car with a laptop ;p

Option 2 bro, SQ all the way!

Yeah, I won't be taking mine to the level you did with yours (very nice job on the sound system BTW). I also love the color of your car

I am going to look into DSP/EQ options and go over them with my installer. Leaning towards an MS-8...

The Imagine series I am buying also are convertible.. Coaxial and component but most people are saying to stay coaxial because the tweeters can get too bright.. I am not sure how I feel about coaxial in this car...

[Skippman]

Surprised no ones mentioned the Audison DSP's, like the Bit Ten and the Bit One.