Sports cars: a mid-market hole?

[f0rge]

What was the last mid-market car that was a true sports car? RX7?

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by ZDan

3rd gen MR2 was also a failure because it was freaking HIDEOUS. I would have bought one if they hadn't been so damned hard to look at. How they managed to make a small roadster look so boring and slab-sided is beyond me. About as sexy a shape as a bar of Dial soap...

Don't forget the bug-eyed headlights, uggh, they really dropped the ball on that design

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by f0rge

What was the last mid-market car that was a true sports car? RX7?

Define true. Is it okay to have rear seats or are we talking SPECIFICALLY two seaters?

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf

Don't forget the bug-eyed headlights, uggh, they really dropped the ball on that design

Indeed...

[ZDan]

Originally Posted by f0rge

What was the last mid-market car that was a true sports car? RX7?

S2000.

[OrangeJuleas]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Genesis Coupe yet...Granted it might be closer to the 370Z, but it is still classified as a sports coupe (and it is rear wheel drive). It provides competition for people who want a FRS/BRZ but want more power than grace.

Also, wait for the 2015 Mustangs (IRS), as they will start to provide a little more competition.

I agree with @ZDan about the S2000 though. That was the end of an era man.

[spdfreak]

Originally Posted by OrangeJuleas

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Genesis Coupe yet...Granted it might be closer to the 370Z, but it is still classified as a sports coupe (and it is rear wheel drive). It provides competition for people who want a FRS/BRZ but want more power than grace.

Also, wait for the 2015 Mustangs (IRS), as they will start to provide a little more competition.

I agree with @ZDan about the S2000 though. That was the end of an era man.

Yes. I'm genuinely excited to see what Ford does with the mustang. They won't go quite as extreme as Subaru/Toyota but I bet they'll still drop some weight. That in combination with IRS could make a pretty serious track toy.

[SUB-FT86]

I wanna know how a 3250 lb Z is considered a Muscle Car? The typical muscle car weight is 500 lbs more than the Z. And the Z is 100-150 lbs more than a 991 911. I think if the Z can drop to 3000 to 3100lbs flat it would be fine considering a Cayman and the S model is in that weight category. A 2.0L turbo engine will definitely aid the Z in that regards. And the Z4 is actually heavier than the 370Z. The TT is actually a FWD based AWD 2 door that also weighs as much as the Z or even heavier than it.

[Joakim3]

Yeah other than lower tier Camaro's, Stangs or the 370z's theres really nothing that fits the 30k-50k market gap.... yet

You'd have to go used and by a Lotus, M3, or something of that nature to get a genuine performance car for ~40k

[OrbitalEllipses]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I wanna know how a 3250 lb Z is considered a Muscle Car? The typical muscle car weight is 500 lbs more than the Z. And the Z is 100-150 lbs more than a 991 911. I think if the Z can drop to 3000 to 3100lbs flat it would be fine considering a Cayman and the S model is in that weight category. A 2.0L turbo engine will definitely aid the Z in that regards. And the Z4 is actually heavier than the 370Z. The TT is actually a FWD based AWD 2 door that also weighs as much as the Z or even heavier than it.

Japanese muscle car or pony car really. The American pony cars weigh around 3600 anyway...

[Rayme]

Looks like entry level sports cars (RWD, Mid engines) were always kind of scarce/low level sellers, no matter the period.

[serialk11r]

Originally Posted by SUB-FT86

I wanna know how a 3250 lb Z is considered a Muscle Car? The typical muscle car weight is 500 lbs more than the Z. And the Z is 100-150 lbs more than a 991 911. I think if the Z can drop to 3000 to 3100lbs flat it would be fine considering a Cayman and the S model is in that weight category. A 2.0L turbo engine will definitely aid the Z in that regards. And the Z4 is actually heavier than the 370Z. The TT is actually a FWD based AWD 2 door that also weighs as much as the Z or even heavier than it.

Probably just because of engine size, but I don't agree with the muscle car thing either. Muscle cars tend to be larger cars, essentially full size cars but only 2 doors.

The Z is really good on paper IMO. It's weight is understandable considering that it has a heavy engine that weighs 2x as much as your typical 4 banger (and puts out 2x the power), beefy gearbox, and big brakes. Not my type of car but I understand why there's so many on the street.

I just think, if there's so many S2000s running around (compared to MR2s) and Honda was able to sell such an expensive car for 9 years, why can't you sell an MR2 that has a real engine in it for the price of a Z? It's not hard, just swap the rods and cams, Toyota engines have conservative strokes compared to the super long stroke engines Honda pushes out. They could even transplant the slightly tweaked engine parts into Corolla XRS models and save money by not using the bigger block AR engines.

[fatoni]

Originally Posted by serialk11r

Probably just because of engine size, but I don't agree with the muscle car thing either. Muscle cars tend to be larger cars, essentially full size cars but only 2 doors.

The Z is really good on paper IMO. It's weight is understandable considering that it has a heavy engine that weighs 2x as much as your typical 4 banger (and puts out 2x the power), beefy gearbox, and big brakes. Not my type of car but I understand why there's so many on the street.

I just think, if there's so many S2000s running around (compared to MR2s) and Honda was able to sell such an expensive car for 9 years, why can't you sell an MR2 that has a real engine in it for the price of a Z? It's not hard, just swap the rods and cams, Toyota engines have conservative strokes compared to the super long stroke engines Honda pushes out. They could even transplant the slightly tweaked engine parts into Corolla XRS models and save money by not using the bigger block AR engines.

i think a lot of the s2ks success was because of the time it came out and the economical landscape it was sold in. cars like these are, more often than not, toys. today i cant see to many people spending tens of thousands on toys which is probably why hot hatches and these turbo sedans do relatively well

[serialk11r]

Well, I don't know. In the first years of the S2000 when it sold there was a major stock market crash and recession. The 370Z is equally impractical but they seem to be selling okay nowadays (based on how often I see one rolling by with its horrendous whining exhaust sound) when the economy is crap, I guess power has something to do with that though. The FRS seems to be doing okay, I see quite a bit of them, and it doesn't have much power. I think they just need to make another 8500rpm+ car that actually looks sexy. It doesn't take fancy creases everywhere in the sheet metal to make a sexy looking car, just some good sense.

Actually, I feel like Honda is in a really good position to do this. Make a mid-engine car with CRZ powertrain but a bored out L15 (though that 89mm stroke is a bit of a problem). Just pick the CRZ guts off the assembly line and drop into another chassis pretty much. Or maybe certify the R16 for EU/US and use that. If it's a mild hybrid, no one will complain about low end torque either since the electric motor adds like 70% more torque at idle. I would be down to put down a good chunk of money for that, and it would cost Honda close to nothing. In fact I would buy a mid-engined CRZ with the exact powertrain they offered, but then again I am the crazy owner of an MR2 Spyder.