lowering the car

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by i_4got

OK, so I'm gonna ask an uber noob question: How do you lower your car? I know I need to take it to a shop or garage that does that, but what do I need to do? I believe I need to buy springs or coils first, right? How do I know which ones are good? And is the level of "drop" determined by the springs/coils, or do I just buy some and tell the shop how low I want my ride to go?

You can lower the car with a set of replacement lowering springs. These will mount up with the stock shocks and mounts and drop the car a predetermined amount and are a little firmer than the factory springs. These range in price from around 250 to 400 or so. You could also replace the stock shocks to better match the springs, but there aren't any available just yet. These just get you better damping, which is sometimes adjustable. They can make a big difference in handling and ride, but do not lower the car on their own.

You can also lower the car with coilovers. Coilovers are a shock and spring combined as a set. The shock has a threaded body with a spring seat that is adjustable. Sometimes the lower mount is adjustable as well. This allows you to adjust ride height to whatever you want (within reason). Coilovers sometimes come with their own top mounts (camber plates front and rear pillowball mounts) but sometimes you reuse stock or get mounts separately. They sometimes (but not always) feature adjustable valving/damping.

Coilovers are not automatically better than springs. They're usually a good bit firmer than just lowering springs. Some of them are pretty awesome. Some of them are pretty bad...worse than stock IMO. You usually can lower the car more since they usually have more compression travel. They range in price from 900 bucks to 15 grand or more for a set. The cheaper ones make big sacrifices in the quality of the valving and valving adjustment of the shock in order to get you height adjustability on the cheap. Sometimes the valving adjustment ranges from soft to really stiff, but all settings are crappy. It's more complicated than just soft and firm, which is why the high end stuff can ride well and still be firm.

You do not NEED camber kits (bolts or camber plates for the front, lower control arms or an adjustment bushing for the rear) but I would recommend it.

It's best to be honest with yourself and your suspension tuner with what you're looking for. Is your car a daily driver? Do you autocross your car or go to any track days? What kind of tires do you run? etc.

Suspension can be a little complicated. We specialize in suspension and have helped other big name companies develop parts for the BRZ and had access to a preproduction car so we have a feeling for what works and what doesn't. We're glad to help if you have any questions.

Originally Posted by jadewbj

Not sure, but even though Hotchkis stage 1 says that it was designed to work with factory shocks I am weary. In all my 15 years doing this I have always seen factory shocks be an issue when the car is lowered.

Every car is different....and in this case the factory shocks are not bad. Room for improvement with a Koni or Bilstein replacement for sure, but the shocks can take a bit of spring rate just fine.

What they can't take is a big drop. Once you get past an inch you start riding the bumpstops and can't soak up bumps on the street (or mid-corner bumps at the track).

So if you must drop more than an inch, I'd recommend coilovers.

If you go with springs, I'd recommend a set that includes replacement bumpstops to make up for the lost travel.....like say our RCE Yellows which have a nice functional 20mm drop and carefully chosen spring rates.

- Andrew

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by Spartan65

But I wonder if Koni and Bilstein especially are going to jump into the fray.

Koni is coming very soon, already being tested with our RCE Yellow springs.

Bilstein coming later.

It's my opinion (and Sam Strano's) that most springs out there are way too soft up front for handling. A lot of bumpstop being used in body roll, which is not the way I like to do things.

- Andrew

[i_4got]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Coilovers are not automatically better than springs. They're usually a good bit firmer than just lowering springs. Some of them are pretty awesome. Some of them are pretty bad...worse than stock IMO. You usually can lower the car more since they usually have more compression travel. They range in price from 900 bucks to 15 grand or more for a set. The cheaper ones make big sacrifices in the quality of the valving and valving adjustment of the shock in order to get you height adjustability on the cheap. Sometimes the valving adjustment ranges from soft to really stiff, but all settings are crappy. It's more complicated than just soft and firm, which is why the high end stuff can ride well and still be firm.

What makes them low quality? Short lifespan? Or do they make for a bumpier ride? My FR-S is my daily ride, but I don't really care about enhancing performance and whatnot. I don't race, and I'm not very aggressive when I drive my car. My car's pretty much stock right now and I want to keep it at that level of smoothness, if that makes sense. My main goal is to just lower my ride and close the tire gap. Of course, I also don't want to sacrifice the quality of my ride. I don't want to tolerate a bumpy ride just because I want to sit lower.

And in terms of soft/firm, I actually don't know which is good. Is soft bad? For someone like me, would you suggest springs or coilovers?

Sorry for all the questions! You're a champ!

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by i_4got

What makes them low quality? Short lifespan? Or do they make for a bumpier ride? My FR-S is my daily ride, but I don't really care about enhancing performance and whatnot. I don't race, and I'm not very aggressive when I drive my car. My car's pretty much stock right now and I want to keep it at that level of smoothness, if that makes sense. My main goal is to just lower my ride and close the tire gap. Of course, I also don't want to sacrifice the quality of my ride. I don't want to tolerate a bumpy ride just because I want to sit lower.

And in terms of soft/firm, I actually don't know which is good. Is soft bad? For someone like me, would you suggest springs or coilovers?

Sorry for all the questions! You're a champ!

Glad to talk suspension and help someone out.

The valving itself can be poor quality beyond just soft vs firm. On racecars with expensive coilovers...the valving is firm during body roll but can "blow-off" during bigger bumps so that it can soak them up without upsetting the car. This translates to a good ride on the street with good handling with street coilovers that have similar technology.

On poorer quality dampers your best case scenario is just a linear situation, which usually means too little damping (soft) in body roll and too much with bigger bumps (firm). They're also often very inconsistent between all 4 corners and change when they get hot. Longevity is sometimes an issue but that depends on the brand. Sometimes they may not have much travel either, which also results in a bumpy ride.

For your uses a simple set of springs sounds like it would do the trick.

-Andrew

[DR 86]

I'd also appreciate your expert advice on choosing suspension upgrades. My budget is $2000. My FR-S is my daily driver, but I do participate in 10-15 track days a year. I don't need to compete with other cars on the track, but would like to gradually improve my performance and lap times. From my track experiences this season running bone stock, I'd like to achieve less body roll, crisper steering feedback at turn-in, and more neutral handling in corners (it's a bit too tail happy for my liking right now). I don't drift. For aesthetics, I'd like to drop an inch, but will stay with 17" wheels on better rubber (either Dunlop Star Specs/Yokohama AD08s or if I decide to get a set of track dedicated wheels, Toyo R888s). What would you recommend to meet my needs for my budget ($2000 for suspension)? Thanks!

[deucethemoose]

For a 2K budget for suspension? KW V3.

[JoeBoxer]

Originally Posted by deucethemoose

For a 2K budget for suspension? KW V3.

KW's are very nice but that would take his whole budget. I'm not the expert RCE is by any means but i would think RCE Yellows, Whiteline Camber and Subframe bushings, and AVO(or similar) front LCA bushings would be a good start. Next step would be sway bars and Koni's and should be good to go and well under budget.

[i_4got]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

Glad to talk suspension and help someone out.

The valving itself can be poor quality beyond just soft vs firm. On racecars with expensive coilovers...the valving is firm during body roll but can "blow-off" during bigger bumps so that it can soak them up without upsetting the car. This translates to a good ride on the street with good handling with street coilovers that have similar technology.

On poorer quality dampers your best case scenario is just a linear situation, which usually means too little damping (soft) in body roll and too much with bigger bumps (firm). They're also often very inconsistent between all 4 corners and change when they get hot. Longevity is sometimes an issue but that depends on the brand. Sometimes they may not have much travel either, which also results in a bumpy ride.

For your uses a simple set of springs sounds like it would do the trick.

-Andrew

Wow, so informative! Thanks! Are there any specific brands that you would recommend? Are there certain specifications that I should look out for? For example, tires have different sizes. Is there some number I need to look at for each type of spring to understand how good they are and how much I can lower my car?

Thanks!

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by DR 86

I'd also appreciate your expert advice on choosing suspension upgrades. My budget is $2000. My FR-S is my daily driver, but I do participate in 10-15 track days a year. I don't need to compete with other cars on the track, but would like to gradually improve my performance and lap times. From my track experiences this season running bone stock, I'd like to achieve less body roll, crisper steering feedback at turn-in, and more neutral handling in corners (it's a bit too tail happy for my liking right now). I don't drift. For aesthetics, I'd like to drop an inch, but will stay with 17" wheels on better rubber (either Dunlop Star Specs/Yokohama AD08s or if I decide to get a set of track dedicated wheels, Toyo R888s). What would you recommend to meet my needs for my budget ($2000 for suspension)? Thanks!

If you can push your budget a little, then KWs + our bushings package is a solid way to go. You'll get great handling and ride quality. I'd say if you're planning on the R888s you'll want this set-up.

JUST the coilovers (with all stock bushings) is not something I recommend. For a track car, you want to upgrade them...period.

Alternatively, RCE Yellow springs, Konis, our bushings packages, and swaybars would probably get you in under your budget and works very well with a good sticky street tire like star specs. You could also start here, and move to coilovers later (and sell the springs and shocks).

- Andrew

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by i_4got

Wow, so informative! Thanks! Are there any specific brands that you would recommend? Are there certain specifications that I should look out for? For example, tires have different sizes. Is there some number I need to look at for each type of spring to understand how good they are and how much I can lower my car?

Thanks!

Well....we're obviously biased but we do have our RCE Yellow springs. We focused on function over form, but you do still get a pretty nice looking drop of 20mm.

There's a sticky at the top of the suspension forum that lists the drop of the springs that are out there. Anything over an inch IMO is too much, and as far as I know Eibach is the only other company to include shortened bumpstops besides us. That should be taken into account as well.

You'll notice most springs are much softer up front and a little stiffer in the rear than ours. This is shown as the spring rate in terms of lbs/in. Ours are 250 lbs/in front and rear. Our reasons for this stem from both theory and testing various configurations. The firmer front helps keep the car off the bumpstops and makes the car a lot easier to control under power. It's my opinion and others that a very soft front makes the car a little sloppy/floaty up front and causes the car to want to spin a little too much.

- Andrew

[DR 86]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

If you can push your budget a little, then KWs + our bushings package is a solid way to go. You'll get great handling and ride quality. I'd say if you're planning on the R888s you'll want this set-up.

JUST the coilovers (with all stock bushings) is not something I recommend. For a track car, you want to upgrade them...period.

Alternatively, RCE Yellow springs, Konis, our bushings packages, and swaybars would probably get you in under your budget and works very well with a good sticky street tire like star specs. You could also start here, and move to coilovers later (and sell the springs and shocks).

- Andrew

Thanks for the help Andrew. Say I went with the KWs, which bushings from your site should I order?

[Racecomp Engineering]

Originally Posted by DR 86

Thanks for the help Andrew. Say I went with the KWs, which bushings from your site should I order?

In our vendor thread we have 2 bushing packages that we think are the key bushings to focus on. I'm not sure if the packages are on the website. Basically it's the 2 front control arm bushings from AVO and a handful of rear Whiteline bushings.

We usually do a little better with package pricing than we do with the posted pricing on our website.

- andrew

[jadewbj]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

If you can push your budget a little

He would have to push it quite a bit. He would be at $2,300 for just the coils and he would still need to buy pillow ball mounts to be able to have any camber adjustment on the fronts. That is another $220. That plus all of the bushings you recommend is a pretty big jump up from $2,000.

[jadewbj]

Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering

In our vendor thread we have 2 bushing packages that we think are the key bushings to focus on. I'm not sure if the packages are on the website. Basically it's the 2 front control arm bushings from AVO and a handful of rear Whiteline bushings.

We usually do a little better with package pricing than we do with the posted pricing on our website.

- andrew

I would also be interested in knowing what all the bushings are and the cost.