Staggering 9" rear, 8" front handling experience?

[churchx]

Turning to staggered setup though seems to me like modifying car to workaround wrong style of driving. Imho right approach would be to adjust one's driving inputs for car to go as wished instead of modding it. Learning car/throttle control instead of offsetting wrong driving with wrong tuning for them to cancel out. To not loose grip when accelerating out of corners one should be easy on gradually opening throttle to go proportionally to straightening front wheels and letting weight shift to rear. One can also choose late apex race line for more acceleration sooner out of corner and faster exit speeds.
Yes, one can mod car to point for rear to hardly loose any traction even if flooring throttle at wrong times to wrong extent. But should one and will it make car/driver faster overall, as far as track driving is considered?

[Leonardo]

Originally Posted by RJasonKlein

As a follow up to my last comments, I do like the way the staggered setup looks, though - I’m just surprised it doesn’t kill the balance of the car.

My engine is stock (drop in K&N barely counts for anything). I have eibach pro kit springs and camber bolts.


My car drives great. I also clearly stated that I use mine on the street with MPSS tires. MPSS, are generally considered good/great for street. But are also not what track guys are running. Not to mention my suspension or transmission.


Every choice is a compromise. I made a compromise that suits my style of driving.


I used to own a S2000. It was a better track car. Which compromised its regular life functionality. No room.


Anyway for the FRS/BRZ/GT86. I think a stiffer suspension mixed with a larger difference in front and rear tire width could be what people are talking about "killing" the balance.

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by wparsons

How's the grip in a straight line?

If you're not breaking traction in a straight line, you'll need to shift the grip balance at track out to the rear. One option before changing wheels is the MCS traction mod. It reduces the anti-squat a bit to get more bite in the back end at exit, but won't really change turn in.

If you are breaking traction in a straight line then you'll need more tire in the rear. Whether you go staggered or square will depend on how you want the balance to be.

The tires slip in 3rd and especially. There is no doubt I am losing grip in the rear with the power. Not a fan of making the steering heavier, hence the reason for a small (20mm) stagger. Initially was unsure but now feel more confident on the decision. Since the car is my daily in spring and summer, I do launch it from time to time. I'd like to d track time every year a few times, and obviously don't want an understeer monster.

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by Leonardo

My engine is stock (drop in K&N barely counts for anything). I have eibach pro kit springs and camber bolts.


My car drives great. I also clearly stated that I use mine on the street with MPSS tires. MPSS, are generally considered good/great for street. But are also not what track guys are running. Not to mention my suspension or transmission.


Every choice is a compromise. I made a compromise that suits my style of driving.


I used to own a S2000. It was a better track car. Which compromised its regular life functionality. No room.


Anyway for the FRS/BRZ/GT86. I think a stiffer suspension mixed with a larger difference in front and rear tire width could be what people are talking about "killing" the balance.

My car is by far mostly for street and I too use MPSS. Best tire in the rain ever! The argument is they are costly, but a few hundred vs good outcome is a no-brainer for me. The other reason for the stagger is when I am street driving and feel like flexing my muscles a bit with a quick launch (not street racing), it would be nice if the spinning wheels=acceleration, not fishtailing. After all, why did i install a supercharger unless i am looking to extract an much power as i can while being practical.


After all, my twin IS a sleeper.

[rvoll]

Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG

I bought wider because I initially intended to autoX the car. You also keep saying a wider tire does not have more performance when it does. It is just that the performance(more lateral grip) does not equal an improved lap time. BTW that boosted car with staggered wheels and RE71R's spent the day behind my overtired mostly stock na car.

If you have the same driver in a non-autocross car with optimal tires (in this case 215's to 225's square) compared with the wider tires, the optimal tires should win every time. There are a lot of poor drivers with turbos so I'm not sure the fact that the boosted car was behind you says anything. You're obviously the better driver. When I was in the Porsche club, there were instructors who could obliterate my times with my car. You were obviously the better driver. Probably a hell of a lot better than me. I tracked cars to learn about modifications like wheels and tires, not to win events. I did a lot of experimentation and that's how I got my jollies. That was when I was younger. I bought the BRZ to just have a fun car on the road. I don't really plan to do hardly any mods on the car except for tires, and perhaps brake pads. And maybe upgrade the audio. I took the advice of many of you and dumped my new Primacy HP's in favor of PS4S's, and I'm glad I did. (By the way, those almost new Primacy HP's are for sale cheap if anyone wants them in Vegas). There is also a psychological effect that haunts all of us (including me), i.e., when you think you have a hotter car/setup, you drive it more aggressively. We all deny this effect, but it's been proven to me several times that it exists....

Listen, if you like the way your car drives/looks, then that is the most important factor. That said, I think it's important to have these types of discussions on forums so people without experience know what to look for. If you go to the Wheels/Tires technical area, virtually all discussions are about what fits and not what it does to this car. Enjoy your car. It sounds like your a pretty good driver....

[why?]

Originally Posted by wbradley

My car is by far mostly for street and I too use MPSS. Best tire in the rain ever! The argument is they are costly, but a few hundred vs good outcome is a no-brainer for me. The other reason for the stagger is when I am street driving and feel like flexing my muscles a bit with a quick launch (not street racing), it would be nice if the spinning wheels=acceleration, not fishtailing. After all, why did i install a supercharger unless i am looking to extract an much power as i can while being practical.


After all, my twin IS a sleeper.

no twin is a sleeper. It is not possible.

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by why?

no twin is a sleeper. It is not possible.

Black with matte black wheels and a tint with Five Axis kit and 20mm lower than stock. Only visual sign of more hp is the intercooler which is the width of the entire front grill (not a stock HKS intercooler). Most people would not know or see that and automatically think, "Meh, 200 HP" and proceed to out-accelerate me. If I see a tricked out car beside me I always like to look and see and occasionally I can exercise my "sleeper rights". Funny enough have never encountered another twin doing a blast on more than stock power on the street, though I know there are fast ones out there. There was a cost is no object BRZ at the track last week that also had an HKS S/C as it turned out. That think had a Voltex wing, so hardly sleeper.

[why?]

Originally Posted by wbradley

Black with matte black wheels and a tint with Five Axis kit and 20mm lower than stock. Only visual sign of more hp is the intercooler which is the width of the entire front grill (not a stock HKS intercooler). Most people would not know or see that and automatically think, "Meh, 200 HP" and proceed to out-accelerate me. If I see a tricked out car beside me I always like to look and see and occasionally I can exercise my "sleeper rights". Funny enough have never encountered another twin doing a blast on more than stock power on the street, though I know there are fast ones out there. There was a cost is no object BRZ at the track last week that also had an HKS S/C as it turned out. That think had a Voltex wing, so hardly sleeper.

it is still a sports car. Everyone is going to notice it. Most people are stunned when you tell them it has no power.

[Leonardo]

Originally Posted by why?

no twin is a sleeper. It is not possible.

I sleep in mine. My thermarest fits nicely with the seat folded down. I have a small cooler that fits behind the front seat and holds it forward. And it is the same height as the seat folded down. I can make a 40" x 80" bed.

[wbradley]

Originally Posted by Leonardo

I sleep in mine. My thermarest fits nicely with the seat folded down. I have a small cooler that fits behind the front seat and holds it forward. And it is the same height as the seat folded down. I can make a 40" x 80" bed.

Good to know if one finds one self homeless. Just park it by the river. lol

[wbradley]

Done btw. I will update my impression after Mon May 21 DDT.

[ZDan]

First I'll just say that the effects of stagger are often HUGELY overstated... 225/245 vs. 225/225 or 245/245 just isn't that big a deal.

Originally Posted by wbradley

The tires slip in 3rd and especially. There is no doubt I am losing grip in the rear with the power. Not a fan of making the steering heavier, hence the reason for a small (20mm) stagger..

I don't think 245/40-17 fronts with some negative camber should make the steering much if any heavier vs. 225/45-17. The weight difference between those two sizes is somewhere between 0 and 1 lb. for most tires. And the 245/40s have shorter sidewalls which would give slightly more mechanical advantage at the steering wheel. Personally I just went with 245 all around for my car. Running time trials at the track this Saturday.

Originally Posted by wbradley

My car is by far mostly for street and I too use MPSS.

I guess it's a little late, but tire choice is your problem, not tire size. MPSS are hugely overrated. I tried them on my 6.8 liter 550hp FD for the street, and initially they were OK, but after 18 months they lost all grip. To the extent that I could get wheelspin in a straight line in 3rd gear at 75mph. And the car would instantly go dead sideways, no lateral grip whatsoever once traction was lost. So I went to RE71Rs for my street tires. HUGELY better at putting power down, and also maintained some usable lateral grip even with wheelspin. Way way WAY better than MPSS for driveability. But I wound up running them at the track and couldn't put the power down out of 2nd gear corners. So ultimately I went to NT01s, which for me, for that car, was the best street/track tire compromise. They actually make pretty good street tires if you avoid standing water...

[cjd]

Square will still be faster than staggered until you're into mad power and super wide wheels/tires. Breaking and turning will be better, and overall car balance. Acceleration will be faster with more rear tire and even less front... There's a reason that's the popular drag setup.

There will be stages where a mildly pushy car will be faster for most drivers still polishing their chops. I'm there right now, but dialed that in with suspension...

C

[Sapphireho]

Interesting how most high end sports cars come staggered.