[2017 BRZ] Still lost with tires, looking for help

[JazzleSAURUS]

If you go 17x8+35, with 225/45-17 tires, you'll be flush in the front, and you'll need just a tiny bit of extra spacing out back to be flush. You could go +42 front, +35 rear and it would be more even, but at the cost of flushness, and ability to rotate tires, (different F/R fitment.)

My course of action opinion: Buy the wheels you like in the sizing mentioned above, with 225/45-17 tires, and get some 14mm OEM crash bolts. Install them in your front struts, (both holes will have the smaller 14mm crash bolts instead of a 14mm and iirc 18mm,) this will allow you to gain some camber up front which will do two things: it will pull the top of the tire in just a bit, and will make the rears look more even to the fronts, but the primary function is it will make the car handle better! Get a proper alignment, then stand back and see how close it is to making you happy.

If you want the rears pushed out a dash more to be more even, some 3mm spacers will help a tiny bit, and are the largest spacer you can safely run on stock wheel studs. If you want them pushed out more than that, you'll have to run bolt on spacers which may be a bit too big, or purchase extended wheel studs with thicker slip on spacers.

I've learned from other people that have been patient with me, and an insatiable desire to google everything, and help people learn themselves. So it works out, and I'm happy to help.

Recap:
1) Buy 17x8 +35 Konig Oversteers with 225/45-17 (I like Bridgestone S-04's and Michelin Pilot Super Sports for summer tires.)
2) Buy OEM 14mm crash bolts.
3) Install crash bolts and wheels/tires, get alignment, ask for up-to -2 degrees of camber, and zero toe, (until you decide you want it to turn in like a bat out of hell, this will be a nice improvement, and not accelerate tire wear.)
--At this point, you should be REALLY close to how you want it--
4a) You decide the fronts are perfect, but the rears could go out a tiny bit more...buy slip on 3mm wheel spacers.
4b)You decide the rears need more than 3mm to be happy, grab the H&R slip on spacer and extended wheel stud kit in your desired thickness, MEASURE BEFORE YOU BUY! Odds are you won't have a ton of room to go out!
5) Enjoy near perfect flushness with comfortable compliant stock suspension, drastically increased grip without losing the fun 'playability' of the car, and enjoy the much improved turn in from the front camber.

Make sure to come back and update with pics, and if you get to a part where you're not sure what to do next. I love to see cars progress, and it helps others who may be in a similar circumstance and want to see what the outcome would be if they followed your path.

For a 3mm spacer I suggest these: https://store.partsshopmax.com/shop/...t/AWS3-56.html

For a slip on spacer with extended lug kit, I suggest these:
http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/h-r-...l#.Wgs2FfmnFaQ

If you go past 3mm, you need to replace the studs with longer ones to have a proper/safe amount of lug nut thread engagement. Once you go to 20mm they go from slip ons to bolt ons, which is not what you should be looking at with your wheel offset selection.

Here's what the OEM strut mount bolts look like. Your car has 1 14mm, and 1 16mm. When you replace the 16mm with a 14mm you gain movement/adjustability. You don't need a ton so OEM crash bolts from the dealer work great. If you later decide you want more, I suggest getting SPC camber bolts.


I hope that was comprehensive enough, I know I threw in spacer options and camber adjustment, but it occurred to me that adding camber will pull the fronts in, and likely make it very close to even, and very close to flush.

Any other questions, I'm here for you!

[JazzleSAURUS]

Also this may help!

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...29&postcount=7

17x8+35, with 225/45-17 Michelin PSS. It's not a great angle, but it shows about what you're working with at stock height. If you lower it a bit, they will get sucked in a dash, which may work out well. Camber can do that too.

[JazzleSAURUS]

And this:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...03&postcount=1
17x8+36 (1mm out further than the +35 oversteers...) with 215/45-17s, your tire package will stick out about 5mm closer to the fender, (10mm wider, about half on each side.)

[cytogenesis]

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS

If you go 17x8+35, with 225/45-17 tires, you'll be flush in the front, and you'll need just a tiny bit of extra spacing out back to be flush. You could go +42 front, +35 rear and it would be more even, but at the cost of flushness, and ability to rotate tires, (different F/R fitment.)

My course of action opinion: Buy the wheels you like in the sizing mentioned above, with 225/45-17 tires, and get some 14mm OEM crash bolts. Install them in your front struts, (both holes will have the smaller 14mm crash bolts instead of a 14mm and iirc 18mm,) this will allow you to gain some camber up front which will do two things: it will pull the top of the tire in just a bit, and will make the rears look more even to the fronts, but the primary function is it will make the car handle better! Get a proper alignment, then stand back and see how close it is to making you happy.

If you want the rears pushed out a dash more to be more even, some 3mm spacers will help a tiny bit, and are the largest spacer you can safely run on stock wheel studs. If you want them pushed out more than that, you'll have to run bolt on spacers which may be a bit too big, or purchase extended wheel studs with thicker slip on spacers.

I've learned from other people that have been patient with me, and an insatiable desire to google everything, and help people learn themselves. So it works out, and I'm happy to help.

Recap:
1) Buy 17x8 +35 Konig Oversteers with 225/45-17 (I like Bridgestone S-04's and Michelin Pilot Super Sports for summer tires.)
2) Buy OEM 14mm crash bolts.
3) Install crash bolts and wheels/tires, get alignment, ask for up-to -2 degrees of camber, and zero toe, (until you decide you want it to turn in like a bat out of hell, this will be a nice improvement, and not accelerate tire wear.)
--At this point, you should be REALLY close to how you want it--
4a) You decide the fronts are perfect, but the rears could go out a tiny bit more...buy slip on 3mm wheel spacers.
4b)You decide the rears need more than 3mm to be happy, grab the H&R slip on spacer and extended wheel stud kit in your desired thickness, MEASURE BEFORE YOU BUY! Odds are you won't have a ton of room to go out!
5) Enjoy near perfect flushness with comfortable compliant stock suspension, drastically increased grip without losing the fun 'playability' of the car, and enjoy the much improved turn in from the front camber.

Make sure to come back and update with pics, and if you get to a part where you're not sure what to do next. I love to see cars progress, and it helps others who may be in a similar circumstance and want to see what the outcome would be if they followed your path.

For a 3mm spacer I suggest these: https://store.partsshopmax.com/shop/...t/AWS3-56.html

For a slip on spacer with extended lug kit, I suggest these:
http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/h-r-...l#.Wgs2FfmnFaQ

If you go past 3mm, you need to replace the studs with longer ones to have a proper/safe amount of lug nut thread engagement. Once you go to 20mm they go from slip ons to bolt ons, which is not what you should be looking at with your wheel offset selection.

Here's what the OEM strut mount bolts look like. Your car has 1 14mm, and 1 16mm. When you replace the 16mm with a 14mm you gain movement/adjustability. You don't need a ton so OEM crash bolts from the dealer work great. If you later decide you want more, I suggest getting SPC camber bolts.


I hope that was comprehensive enough, I know I threw in spacer options and camber adjustment, but it occurred to me that adding camber will pull the fronts in, and likely make it very close to even, and very close to flush.

Any other questions, I'm here for you!

Joining this forum was the best decision I ever made. Someone here can actually baby me through this stuff in the way that I need, thank god.

Can you help me understand step 3 a little more? What do the crash bolts do exactly? Am I asking the installer for -2 degrees of camber and zero toe? What do these things do exactly?

Also, would there be any difference in appearance of tires on the car from stock after step 3 and/or any difference in performance/handling?

EDIT: What about Toyo Tires? or is there a reason you prefer those two companies?

Just looking to understand is all .

[JazzleSAURUS]

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22201
That thread covers installing crash/camber bolts.

Stock, the front camber is non-adjustable so you have to buy these bolts to have any adjustment.

Factory alignments almost always suck, so adding a bit of adjustability, and gaining a bit of camber will improve turn in. With camber, the tops of the wheels will tilt in just a bit. When you corner left for example, a lot of the weight transfers to the right side of the car. When you have a bit of camber that weight will push the tire flat to the ground maximizing grip. If you have 0 camber, (straight up and down,) it will push on the outside of the tire, which will overwhelm the tire, (less of a contact patch, less grip.) You can go too far for sure, about -2.5 degrees front is the most I would run on a street car.

You're asking them to zero out toe because odds are it's close but not perfect from the factory, so this will minimize wear on your fancy new tires. If you decide you want the car to turn in harder while cornering, you can add a little extra camber, and/or a little bit of toe out, this will cause the front tires to point out a tiny bit. This accelerates tire wear quite a bit, but if your preference is for that hard turn in, replacing tires more frequently becomes a little less bothersome.

When you add a bit of camber, it pulls the tops of the tire in a bit, so it's getting closer to suspension, further away from the fender. If you get -2 degrees of camber front, -1 degree rear, which is a decent place to start, (again, zero out toe,) it will make it look a bit more even because there is tons more room in the rear on these cars for wide wheels/tires than the front, so more camber up front will help aesthetically just a little, (as well as with handling.)

[JazzleSAURUS]

Also based on your comment about being babied through, I do this in the hope that you'll genuinely understand, and be able to help out other enthusiasts!

Toyo tires are fine, but when you look at the offerings for a good quality performance summer tire, that aren't cheater autox tires or track tires, those two reign supreme. The new Conti looks promising though.

I run RE71R's on my Forester, but that's a car that gets driven during the winter, or brought out to get my fill of grip and boost, and go autoxing with. Those tires are overkill for 99.9999999% for people.

[cytogenesis]

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22201
That thread covers installing crash/camber bolts.

Stock, the front camber is non-adjustable so you have to buy these bolts to have any adjustment.

Factory alignments almost always suck, so adding a bit of adjustability, and gaining a bit of camber will improve turn in. With camber, the tops of the wheels will tilt in just a bit. When you corner left for example, a lot of the weight transfers to the right side of the car. When you have a bit of camber that weight will push the tire flat to the ground maximizing grip. If you have 0 camber, (straight up and down,) it will push on the outside of the tire, which will overwhelm the tire, (less of a contact patch, less grip.) You can go too far for sure, about -2.5 degrees front is the most I would run on a street car.

You're asking them to zero out toe because odds are it's close but not perfect from the factory, so this will minimize wear on your fancy new tires. If you decide you want the car to turn in harder while cornering, you can add a little extra camber, and/or a little bit of toe out, this will cause the front tires to point out a tiny bit. This accelerates tire wear quite a bit, but if your preference is for that hard turn in, replacing tires more frequently becomes a little less bothersome.

When you add a bit of camber, it pulls the tops of the tire in a bit, so it's getting closer to suspension, further away from the fender. If you get -2 degrees of camber front, -1 degree rear, which is a decent place to start, (again, zero out toe,) it will make it look a bit more even because there is tons more room in the rear on these cars for wide wheels/tires than the front, so more camber up front will help aesthetically just a little, (as well as with handling.)

1) So are camber bolts = crash bolts? i'm assuming these are interchangeable terms?

2) Do I only need 2 camber bolts for only the front wheels or 4 for front and back?

3) Where would I go about finding some camber/crash? I'm looking around online and nothing seems to be jumping out as correct.

4) So if I understand correctly overall, you're saying that (after step 3) without the 3mm spacers my front wheels will probably be flush but my back wheels will not?

Sorry for so many questions. But yes, now that I'm actually learning about modifying cars I can help others too sometime .

[JazzleSAURUS]

1) So are camber bolts = crash bolts? i'm assuming these are interchangeable terms?

Up front, camber bolts are a bolt with a lobe on them, they allow you to turn the bolt, and it will adjust camber. Crash bolts are a bolt of a smaller diameter that clamps the strut clevice in place, but is thinner than the part that came on the car from the dealer so you get some camber adjustment.

2) Do I only need 2 camber bolts for only the front wheels or 4 for front and back?

You need two bolts total, one per side, front only.

3) Where would I go about finding some camber/crash? I'm looking around online and nothing seems to be jumping out as correct.

You can get the crash bolts from your local Toyota or Subaru dealer. You can also run camber bolts, but I think for your purposes, (less extreme,) you don't need as much camber as they can provide so going with an OEM solution is a preferable one.

4) So if I understand correctly overall, you're saying that (after step 3) without the 3mm spacers my front wheels will probably be flush but my back wheels will not?

I think the fronts will be perfect, and the rears will be very close. The 3mm spacer I think will be enough to make it not noticable, but because most of the cars I work with are lowered a bit, there's a bit of 'your mileage may vary' between every car being oh so slightly different, and differing opinions on what is close enough to flush.

[cytogenesis]

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS

1) So are camber bolts = crash bolts? i'm assuming these are interchangeable terms?

Up front, camber bolts are a bolt with a lobe on them, they allow you to turn the bolt, and it will adjust camber. Crash bolts are a bolt of a smaller diameter that clamps the strut clevice in place, but is thinner than the part that came on the car from the dealer so you get some camber adjustment.

2) Do I only need 2 camber bolts for only the front wheels or 4 for front and back?

You need two bolts total, one per side, front only.

3) Where would I go about finding some camber/crash? I'm looking around online and nothing seems to be jumping out as correct.

You can get the crash bolts from your local Toyota or Subaru dealer. You can also run camber bolts, but I think for your purposes, (less extreme,) you don't need as much camber as they can provide so going with an OEM solution is a preferable one.

4) So if I understand correctly overall, you're saying that (after step 3) without the 3mm spacers my front wheels will probably be flush but my back wheels will not?

I think the fronts will be perfect, and the rears will be very close. The 3mm spacer I think will be enough to make it not noticable, but because most of the cars I work with are lowered a bit, there's a bit of 'your mileage may vary' between every car being oh so slightly different, and differing opinions on what is close enough to flush.

Awesome. It looks like I have my work cut out for me now. I need to find places to buy tires and wheels and what not. I will try to update as I go on but at the least I will provide update pictures . Thanks a ton for your help. I'm going to create a list here for myself, let me know if something isn't correct.

1) I need: 17x8 +35mm wheels, 225/45/r17 tires, 14mm OEM crash bolts.
2) Have all installed, asking for up to -2 degrees of camber and zero toe
3) evaluate alignment, if i want more flush in the back, buy 3mm spacers

EDIT: Almost forgot, I think a new bolt set is also necessary: Muteki 41885B Black 12mm x 1.25mm Closed End Spline Drive Lug Nut Set with Key, (Set of 20) --- hopefully these are ok, i think they should be?

[JazzleSAURUS]

Originally Posted by cytogenesis

Awesome. It looks like I have my work cut out for me now. I need to find places to buy tires and wheels and what not. I will try to update as I go on but at the least I will provide update pictures . Thanks a ton for your help. I'm going to create a list here for myself, let me know if something isn't correct.

1) I need: 17x8 +35mm wheels, 225/45/r17 tires, 14mm OEM crash bolts.
2) Have all installed, asking for up to -2 degrees of camber and zero toe
3) evaluate alignment, if i want more flush in the back, buy 3mm spacers

Bingo.

Tire rack usually has pricing that's about what you'd normally get, and can ship tires mounted/balanced on your wheels if you buy the full package from them.

Good luck!

[Dogster70]

anyone know if a set of 18x8.5 +45 offset with a 245/35 in the front and 18x9.5 +45 offset rear with a 255 or 265/35 will have any clearance issues on bilstein b16 coils?

[cytogenesis]

Originally Posted by JazzleSAURUS

Bingo.

Tire rack usually has pricing that's about what you'd normally get, and can ship tires mounted/balanced on your wheels if you buy the full package from them.

Good luck!

Hi again, sorry I realized I have a couple more questions. You said the S-04s are good summer tires, does that mean they'd be bad in the winter? Where I live, we very rarely get snow but it does get pretty cold. Just want to make sure that if I get tires like that I won't have to rotate them out during the winter.

Also, I think a new bolt set would be nice, will I have issues with these?: Muteki 41885B Black 12mm x 1.25mm Closed End Spline Drive Lug Nut Set with Key, (Set of 20)

[JazzleSAURUS]

Originally Posted by cytogenesis

Hi again, sorry I realized I have a couple more questions. You said the S-04s are good summer tires, does that mean they'd be bad in the winter? Where I live, we very rarely get snow but it does get pretty cold. Just want to make sure that if I get tires like that I won't have to rotate them out during the winter.

Also, I think a new bolt set would be nice, will I have issues with these?: Muteki 41885B Black 12mm x 1.25mm Closed End Spline Drive Lug Nut Set with Key, (Set of 20)

I actually really like those lug nuts. I have them in chrome on my BRZ, and in black on my wife's Crosstrek.

Three types of tires: Summer, all season, and winter. All seasons perform drastically worse than either summers in summer, or winters in winter, and are barely adequate in summer and in winter.

If you must have an all season, the Michelin Pilot AS3 and Continental DWS are as good as they get, but I'm being serious when I say there is no surefire way to ruin this car harder and faster than putting on all season tires.

Run proper summer tires 3 seasons out of the year, if you barely get snow and it just gets cold, find some used all seasons locally on a subaru forum or facebook group and just run them from late December through March. I got a set of Forester alloys with Conti DWS all seasons for transition months for $200 locally.

[jvincent]

Originally Posted by cytogenesis

Where I live, we very rarely get snow but it does get pretty cold. Just want to make sure that if I get tires like that I won't have to rotate them out during the winter.

Define "pretty cold".

In general if you have extended periods below 45*F you should swap out your summers.